how can we issue a show cause notice for committing a fraud which was detected after he left the organisation and joined another organisation.
From India, Chennai
From India, Chennai
Dear Dominic,
Do you have incontrovertible evidence of the fraud? If yes, then you may lodge FIR against the employee. Secondly, you may conduct the domestic enquiry also.
Please note that lodging FIR and conducting domestic enquiry are the two independent things. Police investigation and domestic enquiry both can go concurrently.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
7884Do you have incontrovertible evidence of the fraud? If yes, then you may lodge FIR against the employee. Secondly, you may conduct the domestic enquiry also.
Please note that lodging FIR and conducting domestic enquiry are the two independent things. Police investigation and domestic enquiry both can go concurrently.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Dear Franklin,
You can file FIR for fraud if it attracts IPC but not domestic enquiry (domestic enquiry serve no purpose) since the employer and employee relationship don't exit. Now he is an outsider who have committed fraud when he was employee.
From India, Bangalore
You can file FIR for fraud if it attracts IPC but not domestic enquiry (domestic enquiry serve no purpose) since the employer and employee relationship don't exit. Now he is an outsider who have committed fraud when he was employee.
From India, Bangalore
Dear Vivian,
Conducting the domestic enquiry has its own importance on two counts. These are as below.
Firstly, imagine for a while that the company orders domestic enquiry and tell the accused to depose before it. The accused appears and in the enquiry, misconduct of the employee is established. Management tells the employee to refund the money to the company with interest. The accused accepts it and pays also. Therefore, matter gets settled. Thereafter, whether to pursue the the case through civil court is the management's call. No company would be interested to do that.
What I have written above may sound little utopian, nevertheless, we must consider it as one of the possibilities.
The second scenario is as below. Suppose in the domestic enquiry the misconduct is proved. However, the court acquits the accused. In that case should court verdict override the domestic enquiry? No. Rather there are higher court verdicts wherein high court has held that findings of domestic enquiry overrides the court ruling. You may check the following link wherein one such verdict is given by Hon'ble Madras Court:
M.M. Rubber Company Ltd. vs Presiding Officer (Addl.) Labour ... on 10 September, 1985
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
Dear Franklin,
You can file FIR for fraud if it attracts IPC but not domestic enquiry (domestic enquiry serve no purpose) since the employer and employee relationship don't exit. Now he is an outsider who have committed fraud when he was employee.
From India, Bangalore
Conducting the domestic enquiry has its own importance on two counts. These are as below.
Firstly, imagine for a while that the company orders domestic enquiry and tell the accused to depose before it. The accused appears and in the enquiry, misconduct of the employee is established. Management tells the employee to refund the money to the company with interest. The accused accepts it and pays also. Therefore, matter gets settled. Thereafter, whether to pursue the the case through civil court is the management's call. No company would be interested to do that.
What I have written above may sound little utopian, nevertheless, we must consider it as one of the possibilities.
The second scenario is as below. Suppose in the domestic enquiry the misconduct is proved. However, the court acquits the accused. In that case should court verdict override the domestic enquiry? No. Rather there are higher court verdicts wherein high court has held that findings of domestic enquiry overrides the court ruling. You may check the following link wherein one such verdict is given by Hon'ble Madras Court:
M.M. Rubber Company Ltd. vs Presiding Officer (Addl.) Labour ... on 10 September, 1985
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
Dear Franklin,
You can file FIR for fraud if it attracts IPC but not domestic enquiry (domestic enquiry serve no purpose) since the employer and employee relationship don't exit. Now he is an outsider who have committed fraud when he was employee.
From India, Bangalore
Dear All
Thank you all for your valuable suggestions, but i wanted to know that can a company have a clause in its terms and conditions wherein at the time of joining its made clear to the employee that even though you may resign this organisation and join a new organisation in the future. If any discrepancies reported/observed on your part, the company can initiate action against you even though you are no more in the system.
From India, Chennai
Thank you all for your valuable suggestions, but i wanted to know that can a company have a clause in its terms and conditions wherein at the time of joining its made clear to the employee that even though you may resign this organisation and join a new organisation in the future. If any discrepancies reported/observed on your part, the company can initiate action against you even though you are no more in the system.
From India, Chennai
Hello Dominicfranklin,
Can you pl CLARIFY whether your query was related to an ACTUAL situation that you are currently facing OR you are looking to frame your Policies to cover future situations?
Pl note that both the situations are DIFFERENT.
Dinesh's & Vivian's suggestions cover the former scenario.
IF your intent/reason for this thread is the LATER [frame your Policies to cover future situations], then I think you are only exposing your overall relieving Policies/practices/systems.......or the lack of them.
Any employee being relieved is expected to go thru processes for No-Dues, Material handover, etc--which surely would need to include systems that track fraud as a general/regular feature within the Company. Hence, IF you wish to include the clause you mentioned as a part of the Joining formalities, you COULD open-up yourself/company for a situation of mistrust/distrust right from the word 'go'. Doesn't bode well for any employer-employee relationship--right? And don't be surprised IF you find some good Joinees refusing & dropping out altogether OR leaving sooner than later.
Also, what's the timeframe that you wish to cover--IF it's perpetual/infinity, then surely you need to be prepared for a legal situation later on.
Except in positions that would tend to bring-out such fraud situations AFTER relieving [like Finance, where such situation arises just before submission of audited results to MCA, etc], it's always better to tighten the internal systems/processes.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
Can you pl CLARIFY whether your query was related to an ACTUAL situation that you are currently facing OR you are looking to frame your Policies to cover future situations?
Pl note that both the situations are DIFFERENT.
Dinesh's & Vivian's suggestions cover the former scenario.
IF your intent/reason for this thread is the LATER [frame your Policies to cover future situations], then I think you are only exposing your overall relieving Policies/practices/systems.......or the lack of them.
Any employee being relieved is expected to go thru processes for No-Dues, Material handover, etc--which surely would need to include systems that track fraud as a general/regular feature within the Company. Hence, IF you wish to include the clause you mentioned as a part of the Joining formalities, you COULD open-up yourself/company for a situation of mistrust/distrust right from the word 'go'. Doesn't bode well for any employer-employee relationship--right? And don't be surprised IF you find some good Joinees refusing & dropping out altogether OR leaving sooner than later.
Also, what's the timeframe that you wish to cover--IF it's perpetual/infinity, then surely you need to be prepared for a legal situation later on.
Except in positions that would tend to bring-out such fraud situations AFTER relieving [like Finance, where such situation arises just before submission of audited results to MCA, etc], it's always better to tighten the internal systems/processes.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
Dear Dominic,
You are raising queries in instalments. You could have given complete scenario. As Sateesh has asked, does the query relate to some past incident or do you want to take precaution for future?
The unsaid part of your latest post is that you have weak systems and processes and frauds take lot of time for their detection. Rather than telling employees that they are liable for disciplinary action in case if some fraud is detected even after their exit from the company, it is worthwhile to do complete scrutiny of the records before clearing them. Why not to take precautions while the employees are in system?
What about your internal auditors? What about your external auditors? Are they not accountable if the fraud is not detected? Take the case of Satyam Computers. Recently ICAI has taken action against the Chartered Accountants for their faulty audit.
Insertion of clause in the appointment letter is nothing but open manifestation of your own weakness. If the fraud is detected, then whether the employee is on the roll or not, FIR can be lodged. However, raison d'ętre of management science is to avoid these contingencies. It appears that a time has come for your company to take a leaf out of this science!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
You are raising queries in instalments. You could have given complete scenario. As Sateesh has asked, does the query relate to some past incident or do you want to take precaution for future?
The unsaid part of your latest post is that you have weak systems and processes and frauds take lot of time for their detection. Rather than telling employees that they are liable for disciplinary action in case if some fraud is detected even after their exit from the company, it is worthwhile to do complete scrutiny of the records before clearing them. Why not to take precautions while the employees are in system?
What about your internal auditors? What about your external auditors? Are they not accountable if the fraud is not detected? Take the case of Satyam Computers. Recently ICAI has taken action against the Chartered Accountants for their faulty audit.
Insertion of clause in the appointment letter is nothing but open manifestation of your own weakness. If the fraud is detected, then whether the employee is on the roll or not, FIR can be lodged. However, raison d'ętre of management science is to avoid these contingencies. It appears that a time has come for your company to take a leaf out of this science!
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Please may I take this opportunity to request those posing questions to give the complete scenario at the outset, to save time of experts. Also, it helps to give precise answers instead of giving answers based on assumptions.
TS has raised apt questions and Dinesh has given sound suggestions.
From United Kingdom
TS has raised apt questions and Dinesh has given sound suggestions.
From United Kingdom
What i can understand from this forum, is that it is a platform for learning and not pushing thoughts. I was only trying to see any such clause can be added in terms and conditions. As they are many dimensions to a situation and one can only come up with a solution based on the situation.
Anyways thanks all for your valuable suggestions.
From India, Chennai
Anyways thanks all for your valuable suggestions.
From India, Chennai
Hello Dominicfranklin,
You are BOTH right AND wrong.
RIGHT when you say '.....many dimensions to a situation and one can only come up with a solution based on the situation' & WRONG when you say '...........it is a platform for learning and not pushing thoughts'.
Every situation is unique with it's own set of sub-situations embedded within--hence even though @ first glance there could be similarities, they surely would never ever be 'identical'. You got it right with this aspect of human interaction.
As regards CiteHR being a "platform for learning and not pushing thoughts", pl note that there have been many instances--just visit the earlier threads--where CiteHR acted as a sounding board for new ideas & practices before they are implemented by members.
You said it right....possibly without realizing.....when you used the words "pushing thoughts". Yes--CiteHR is NOT a platform/Forum for 'pushing' thoughts. It's a Platform/Forum for discussing [or if I may use the words 'sounding-out'] new/better ideas or solutions for existing or possible anticipated situations. I guess you can see the difference between the two of them.
When a member wishes to sound-out the Forum for possible solutions for future situations, it's imperative that this aspect is mentioned clearly--since the way one looks @ future situations WILL NECESSARILY HAVE TO INCLUDE a much larger canvas of possibilities before any suggestions can be offered.
In Human Relations/Interactions, there surely are no 'hypothetical' situations on a permanent basis--what's hypothetical today CAN be realistic tomorrow....and vice-versa.
Hope you get the point.
All the Best.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
You are BOTH right AND wrong.
RIGHT when you say '.....many dimensions to a situation and one can only come up with a solution based on the situation' & WRONG when you say '...........it is a platform for learning and not pushing thoughts'.
Every situation is unique with it's own set of sub-situations embedded within--hence even though @ first glance there could be similarities, they surely would never ever be 'identical'. You got it right with this aspect of human interaction.
As regards CiteHR being a "platform for learning and not pushing thoughts", pl note that there have been many instances--just visit the earlier threads--where CiteHR acted as a sounding board for new ideas & practices before they are implemented by members.
You said it right....possibly without realizing.....when you used the words "pushing thoughts". Yes--CiteHR is NOT a platform/Forum for 'pushing' thoughts. It's a Platform/Forum for discussing [or if I may use the words 'sounding-out'] new/better ideas or solutions for existing or possible anticipated situations. I guess you can see the difference between the two of them.
When a member wishes to sound-out the Forum for possible solutions for future situations, it's imperative that this aspect is mentioned clearly--since the way one looks @ future situations WILL NECESSARILY HAVE TO INCLUDE a much larger canvas of possibilities before any suggestions can be offered.
In Human Relations/Interactions, there surely are no 'hypothetical' situations on a permanent basis--what's hypothetical today CAN be realistic tomorrow....and vice-versa.
Hope you get the point.
All the Best.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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