I think that this woman must be terminated because as per India law its an illegitimate product of an illegal relationship. There is nothing like individual respect in this case because its always the organizational respect that should matter.You can not individually respect a person who has induldged into an illegal activity.
C N Daftuar
C N Daftuar
People talk about Humanity all across,,, What about Moral Ethics,,, Why try to Justify the act of the Person,, Setting an Example,,,,,
From India, Coimbatore
733From India, Coimbatore
My Dear Learned and Educated HR Professionals,
I saw the comments of many members discussing on legal, moral, cultural, environment and what not. Some told to fire her, some told to support her, some told be neutral and go as per rules.
Well let me tell you one thing, in these cases there is a lot of shock and emotional disturbance to the suffering employee and their family members and close friends.
The employee in your case must have discussed this issue with her family members, close friends and then choosen to go ahead and give birth to the child. Her family members and friends in this case are supportive with her.
But we should not forget that WE STILL ARE IN INDIA, and IN INDIA,
if in your colony, society someone comes to know such thing, then at the same time you lose all your respect, and support of neighbours.
You become the centre of criticism. and in society your life becomes hell. Mostly such type of pregnancy cases go unnoticed as out of shame, of being noticed and the issue spreading, many preferto abort the child to save their prestige.
Even someone told that the person with whom she had relationship must be held responsible, but even she is responsible to some extent, even if he had promised her , she should not have given to it..
From management and company point of view, the employees in your company may call her character less, illegitimate etc etc as we are in INDIA , many employees may not support her, in her work ,and naturally out of such cases many prefer to end their lives to avoid the harassment and wrath of society, such harsh are the experiences.
One thing is for sure, as management neither you can support her as its a issue of INDIAN CULTURE, MORAL VALUES, ETHICS, AND WHETHER THE LAW TELLS OR NOT , GETTING PREGNANT WITHOUT MARRIAGE IS A CRIME, A HENIOUS CRIME IN INDIA, and THE SOCIETY DOES NOT FOLLOW LAWS WRITTEN IN ACTS, RULES.
and if you support her, tomorrow even you might land in a soup for supporting her.
The best way that you can do is that let the decision be taken by the senior members of your company, and whatever decision they take, they would be responsible for it.
In these cases, anything can happen
From India, Pune
I saw the comments of many members discussing on legal, moral, cultural, environment and what not. Some told to fire her, some told to support her, some told be neutral and go as per rules.
Well let me tell you one thing, in these cases there is a lot of shock and emotional disturbance to the suffering employee and their family members and close friends.
The employee in your case must have discussed this issue with her family members, close friends and then choosen to go ahead and give birth to the child. Her family members and friends in this case are supportive with her.
But we should not forget that WE STILL ARE IN INDIA, and IN INDIA,
if in your colony, society someone comes to know such thing, then at the same time you lose all your respect, and support of neighbours.
You become the centre of criticism. and in society your life becomes hell. Mostly such type of pregnancy cases go unnoticed as out of shame, of being noticed and the issue spreading, many preferto abort the child to save their prestige.
Even someone told that the person with whom she had relationship must be held responsible, but even she is responsible to some extent, even if he had promised her , she should not have given to it..
From management and company point of view, the employees in your company may call her character less, illegitimate etc etc as we are in INDIA , many employees may not support her, in her work ,and naturally out of such cases many prefer to end their lives to avoid the harassment and wrath of society, such harsh are the experiences.
One thing is for sure, as management neither you can support her as its a issue of INDIAN CULTURE, MORAL VALUES, ETHICS, AND WHETHER THE LAW TELLS OR NOT , GETTING PREGNANT WITHOUT MARRIAGE IS A CRIME, A HENIOUS CRIME IN INDIA, and THE SOCIETY DOES NOT FOLLOW LAWS WRITTEN IN ACTS, RULES.
and if you support her, tomorrow even you might land in a soup for supporting her.
The best way that you can do is that let the decision be taken by the senior members of your company, and whatever decision they take, they would be responsible for it.
In these cases, anything can happen
From India, Pune
Hi, The only thing that you have to consider whether getting impregnated without getting legally married involves "moral turpitude" or not. Decide the case on this basis. S. Krishnamoorthy
From United States, Roslindale
From United States, Roslindale
hey joe..even iwould agrre with anurag..i am just an ameature in this field...but what they say makes sense..afterall an organziation has not right to deal with the employees personal life..also to top it off the employee in consideration is a good performer..so lest respect her....in fact i feel we sholud help her since she has been a good employee and is now in a problem...also being an HR[which i presume u are] you should try to empathise with her and sympathise...so lets help her..nwyaz tckip smilingregards,disha
From India, Madras
From India, Madras
Dear Octavius
I am not talking about adultery. If the wife lodges a complaint on adultery, action can be taken
When I said Police, it ois just about action I am aware finally courts need to decide.
My view point on this issue is, if you read my posting once again, what is the question before us?
The original posting is all about legally can she take maternity leave and can the manaqgement terminate her.
We as HR professional need to stop with that.
The answer is legally she is eligible for leave and legally manage,ment can not terminate her.
This is as simple as that!!
But, some where in the thread some one starts talking about moral and ethical issues and some one makes this girl as a big achiever. Some one tells India is India. In fact US and western countries are more careful on this.
I was tryting to bring the attention of all that the question before us is not about moral or ethical issues it is one that of legal. Stop with that.
Moral and ethiocal issues be handled by their family and let us stay away from that
We really do not know all facts. Without knowing the facts how can we support her?
I hope you would appreciate my stand....let us make the issue simple. By talking about ethics and moral, we may complicate the whole issue
Siva
From India, Chennai
I am not talking about adultery. If the wife lodges a complaint on adultery, action can be taken
When I said Police, it ois just about action I am aware finally courts need to decide.
My view point on this issue is, if you read my posting once again, what is the question before us?
The original posting is all about legally can she take maternity leave and can the manaqgement terminate her.
We as HR professional need to stop with that.
The answer is legally she is eligible for leave and legally manage,ment can not terminate her.
This is as simple as that!!
But, some where in the thread some one starts talking about moral and ethical issues and some one makes this girl as a big achiever. Some one tells India is India. In fact US and western countries are more careful on this.
I was tryting to bring the attention of all that the question before us is not about moral or ethical issues it is one that of legal. Stop with that.
Moral and ethiocal issues be handled by their family and let us stay away from that
We really do not know all facts. Without knowing the facts how can we support her?
I hope you would appreciate my stand....let us make the issue simple. By talking about ethics and moral, we may complicate the whole issue
Siva
From India, Chennai
Dear Roopa,
May I remind you that employee can be suspended or terminated on "any action that involves moral turpitude" and not necessarily for "immoral act".
Relationship between two parties involved in question i.e. employer and employee is legal and not based on "moral grounds". Even courts have upheld this argument several times.
Classic example of this is when about a decade ago Lucknow High court allowed marriage between two female constables. The marriage did not have any impact of their service in the police force.
Secondly, court has also ruled that singing national anthem is not anti-national. Singing national anthem should not be made compulsory in schools.
Company can well terminate an employee provided employee involves any act that pulls down the image of the company. Having a child before marriage is purely personal affair of that female employee and should not be seen vis-a vis her employment. All that she is asking is what is legally due to her.
Suppose, for a while think that a male employee becomes father or is about to become father well before his marriage. Will you terminate him because of his so-called "immoral" act? Possibly he will not declare his personal affair to company officials or even if he declares, he would not ask for maternity leave as he is not entitled for it. That's where lies a catch!
Ok...
Dinesh V Divekar
From India, Bangalore
May I remind you that employee can be suspended or terminated on "any action that involves moral turpitude" and not necessarily for "immoral act".
Relationship between two parties involved in question i.e. employer and employee is legal and not based on "moral grounds". Even courts have upheld this argument several times.
Classic example of this is when about a decade ago Lucknow High court allowed marriage between two female constables. The marriage did not have any impact of their service in the police force.
Secondly, court has also ruled that singing national anthem is not anti-national. Singing national anthem should not be made compulsory in schools.
Company can well terminate an employee provided employee involves any act that pulls down the image of the company. Having a child before marriage is purely personal affair of that female employee and should not be seen vis-a vis her employment. All that she is asking is what is legally due to her.
Suppose, for a while think that a male employee becomes father or is about to become father well before his marriage. Will you terminate him because of his so-called "immoral" act? Possibly he will not declare his personal affair to company officials or even if he declares, he would not ask for maternity leave as he is not entitled for it. That's where lies a catch!
Ok...
Dinesh V Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Dear Siva,
I think I might have misinterpreted your statement, thank you for taking time and helping me understand the wrongful perception I arrived on your statement
I support Dinesh, and I also state what he has stated, the person in question has been provided maternity benefit, on the grounds that she is a female, and not on the ground that whether she is morally right or not.
Thank You
Octavious
From India, Mumbai
I think I might have misinterpreted your statement, thank you for taking time and helping me understand the wrongful perception I arrived on your statement
I support Dinesh, and I also state what he has stated, the person in question has been provided maternity benefit, on the grounds that she is a female, and not on the ground that whether she is morally right or not.
Thank You
Octavious
From India, Mumbai
Dear Joe,
It is mentioned no where in the maternity benefits act 1961 that the women should be married for being pregnant. All the benefits as pre Sec 5 of the Act are to be conferred to the Pregnant Lady.
So the lady can by all means proceed lagally against ur organisation.
and being a HR guy i am sure you would be able to convince your management.
Go to the following link to know more.
Laws - The Maternity Benefits Act, 1961
regards
rohit
It is mentioned no where in the maternity benefits act 1961 that the women should be married for being pregnant. All the benefits as pre Sec 5 of the Act are to be conferred to the Pregnant Lady.
So the lady can by all means proceed lagally against ur organisation.
and being a HR guy i am sure you would be able to convince your management.
Go to the following link to know more.
Laws - The Maternity Benefits Act, 1961
regards
rohit
Hi Joe,
If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do:
a. Grant her the maternity leave
b. Arrange counselling for her team members to make sure they treat her as they treat any other colleague who had a baby.
c. Make sure the management will not hold this against her at the time of her future appraisals.
If you see all the above three actions, all of them come under my job description as a HR personnel.
Regarding the pressure from management, I would wait and see if the reaction that I got immediately, is it a result of panic or is it more permanent.
If it is former, then, it won't be an issue later. If it is latter, I would show a print of this post to my employer after editing (like removing my name, etc, so that I can be on a safer ground. I can say that this was posted by HR of some other company)
8-)
Murali.
If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do:
a. Grant her the maternity leave
b. Arrange counselling for her team members to make sure they treat her as they treat any other colleague who had a baby.
c. Make sure the management will not hold this against her at the time of her future appraisals.
If you see all the above three actions, all of them come under my job description as a HR personnel.
Regarding the pressure from management, I would wait and see if the reaction that I got immediately, is it a result of panic or is it more permanent.
If it is former, then, it won't be an issue later. If it is latter, I would show a print of this post to my employer after editing (like removing my name, etc, so that I can be on a safer ground. I can say that this was posted by HR of some other company)
8-)
Murali.
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