Dear INFY Employee,
By the way the narrated details by you raise doubts on your own way of dealings / behaviour !
The Company has its own process of redressal of grievances - I suppose !
Instaed of using the internal system, you have put the matter to public - and I do not find any merit in defence for any action on you you for not fullfilling your basic obligations as an employee.
At the outset, I feel you have not given justice to your own PM - who allowed you in faith to take leave on the supposed medical grounds !
Even then the PM cannot continew allowing you take leave over a month again - without any mediacl documents in support of your genuine (?) sickness.
However, time is also not lost so far - TELL THE TRUTH, CHRONOLIOGICAL & LOGICAL EVENTS why the Medical supportive documents were not produced, and be frank and fair to your management - which has hired you for excahge of your desired, expected and agreed services.
Once you do that, exepct a fair deal from Mgt. !
You cannot be UNFAIR to the Management and same time expect FAIR deals from any Management !
Regards,
Ravi Waghmare
From India, Mumbai
3By the way the narrated details by you raise doubts on your own way of dealings / behaviour !
The Company has its own process of redressal of grievances - I suppose !
Instaed of using the internal system, you have put the matter to public - and I do not find any merit in defence for any action on you you for not fullfilling your basic obligations as an employee.
At the outset, I feel you have not given justice to your own PM - who allowed you in faith to take leave on the supposed medical grounds !
Even then the PM cannot continew allowing you take leave over a month again - without any mediacl documents in support of your genuine (?) sickness.
However, time is also not lost so far - TELL THE TRUTH, CHRONOLIOGICAL & LOGICAL EVENTS why the Medical supportive documents were not produced, and be frank and fair to your management - which has hired you for excahge of your desired, expected and agreed services.
Once you do that, exepct a fair deal from Mgt. !
You cannot be UNFAIR to the Management and same time expect FAIR deals from any Management !
Regards,
Ravi Waghmare
From India, Mumbai
The employer can not take disciplinary action against you for having fallen sick about which you have informed him as early as possible and for which you have produced medical certificate from a qualified doctor who as per the service rules of your company is qualified enough to certify your sickness.Despite this, if any action is taken against you , it will not stand the scrutiny of legal forum.There are dozens of case laws supporting my contention.So be cheerful.
sanu soman
From India, Madras
sanu soman
From India, Madras
Dear sanusoman
At times, it is good to exhibit a contrarian opinion. However, I suggest you to read the submission in depth. The poster has faked his illness also on two earlier occasions.
Now, he is trying to fabricate a case out of two month old medical records and trying to integrate it with a certificate from a G.P.
Do take note that whether in a Departmental Enquiry or Labour/Civil court, an adept Prosecution Nominee/Lawyer can rip through such flimsy documentary evidence through a determined persistent cross-examination and leading in his own witnesses comprising of Medical Experts and Specialists.
It is another thing that in general a lenient view is taken so as not to equate employees with criminals. However, this is no licence for such misdeeds and misconducts.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
At times, it is good to exhibit a contrarian opinion. However, I suggest you to read the submission in depth. The poster has faked his illness also on two earlier occasions.
Now, he is trying to fabricate a case out of two month old medical records and trying to integrate it with a certificate from a G.P.
Do take note that whether in a Departmental Enquiry or Labour/Civil court, an adept Prosecution Nominee/Lawyer can rip through such flimsy documentary evidence through a determined persistent cross-examination and leading in his own witnesses comprising of Medical Experts and Specialists.
It is another thing that in general a lenient view is taken so as not to equate employees with criminals. However, this is no licence for such misdeeds and misconducts.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
The fact of the matter is :
"The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice; and on both occasions he has faked it; the third time it was genuine.
The disciplinary authority has not given him even a memo on both the occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts; not even required him to produce medical certificate".
In this background, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness ,he can easily produce genuine medical certificate. And in the domestic inquiry the employer cannot insist upon examining the doctor(s); Even if the doctor is examined, during cross examination they will corroborate the genuinity of the certificate.
As such ,the certificate alone will be documentary evidence which the employer can cross-examine .And no management side representative can rip through the document and establish that the documents were fake ;more so because the documents were genuine; and mind you ,the employee's side representative will not be an idiot.
Further, even for the earlier instances of fake illness he can produce certificates if need be; So from a legal point of view, the employer has no ground to take action against the employee.And medical leaves taken supported by certificates is not sufficient ground for disciplinary action.HR Managers should advise the employers accordingly.
Recently I have seen a guy known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave for more than six months.He was faking disc prolapse; the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home; he was not there at that time.His contention in court was that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment; it was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; yet the guy won his case.
In the case under reference, legally he is safe; let us not frighten him;And HR managers should not jump to the conclusion that what is fake is unwinnable.If the employee concerned has any legal counsel required in this connection,I will help him; let him contact me.
Sanu soman
From India, Madras
"The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice; and on both occasions he has faked it; the third time it was genuine.
The disciplinary authority has not given him even a memo on both the occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts; not even required him to produce medical certificate".
In this background, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness ,he can easily produce genuine medical certificate. And in the domestic inquiry the employer cannot insist upon examining the doctor(s); Even if the doctor is examined, during cross examination they will corroborate the genuinity of the certificate.
As such ,the certificate alone will be documentary evidence which the employer can cross-examine .And no management side representative can rip through the document and establish that the documents were fake ;more so because the documents were genuine; and mind you ,the employee's side representative will not be an idiot.
Further, even for the earlier instances of fake illness he can produce certificates if need be; So from a legal point of view, the employer has no ground to take action against the employee.And medical leaves taken supported by certificates is not sufficient ground for disciplinary action.HR Managers should advise the employers accordingly.
Recently I have seen a guy known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave for more than six months.He was faking disc prolapse; the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home; he was not there at that time.His contention in court was that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment; it was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; yet the guy won his case.
In the case under reference, legally he is safe; let us not frighten him;And HR managers should not jump to the conclusion that what is fake is unwinnable.If the employee concerned has any legal counsel required in this connection,I will help him; let him contact me.
Sanu soman
From India, Madras
Dear Sanu,
You should not forget that doctors also are bound by a code of conduct in their practice. Any predated fake medical certificate can land them in to trouble resulting even in to cancellation of their certificate of practice. Even if on some later date they grant medical cerificate for the past illness, they have to prove with reference to the records maintained by them that the treatment was given by them.
So far as winning of the case by an unauthorisedly absenting employee on the plea that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment, that should not be taken as granted that every employee can win the case on that ground. Taking Ayurvedic treatment does not itself preclude an employe from applying for leave or intimate the management about his illness within a reasonable time.
In that case definitely the case would not have been represented properly by the advocate from the side of the management. Otherwise, there was no reason that his guilt of unauthorised absence would not have been proved effectively.
I don't think the members of the community are supposed to teach fraudulent practices. There are hundrds of means to genuinesly solve the problem than to resort to mal-practices. Mal-practices, in such cases, sometimes very badly spoil a case beyond any rectification. I have a track record of more than 30 years in getting saved my clients (employees & management both) in disciplinary proceedings only on genuine grounds, not through mal-practices.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
[dcgroup1962@gmail.com]
From India, Delhi
You should not forget that doctors also are bound by a code of conduct in their practice. Any predated fake medical certificate can land them in to trouble resulting even in to cancellation of their certificate of practice. Even if on some later date they grant medical cerificate for the past illness, they have to prove with reference to the records maintained by them that the treatment was given by them.
So far as winning of the case by an unauthorisedly absenting employee on the plea that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment, that should not be taken as granted that every employee can win the case on that ground. Taking Ayurvedic treatment does not itself preclude an employe from applying for leave or intimate the management about his illness within a reasonable time.
In that case definitely the case would not have been represented properly by the advocate from the side of the management. Otherwise, there was no reason that his guilt of unauthorised absence would not have been proved effectively.
I don't think the members of the community are supposed to teach fraudulent practices. There are hundrds of means to genuinesly solve the problem than to resort to mal-practices. Mal-practices, in such cases, sometimes very badly spoil a case beyond any rectification. I have a track record of more than 30 years in getting saved my clients (employees & management both) in disciplinary proceedings only on genuine grounds, not through mal-practices.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
[dcgroup1962@gmail.com]
From India, Delhi
The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient ground to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available ;not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer.The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct ; and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company; and the punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct . It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority.Considering the facts and circumstances of the case the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case,in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labour cases.
And all talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse.
Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked conscience of the entire world, less lalked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black.
My position is :the courts go by legality not ethicality;when employees have to challenge the employers disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all.
Sanu soman
From India, Madras
And all talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse.
Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked conscience of the entire world, less lalked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black.
My position is :the courts go by legality not ethicality;when employees have to challenge the employers disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all.
Sanu soman
From India, Madras
Dear Friend,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am employee of Infosys. I have taken unplanned leaves due to medical reasons, thrice so far(for about a month each time). But my PM(Project Manager) knows that I'm faking it,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The very fact that you are openly admitting that you were faking illness is sufficient ground to make you liable for disciplinary action.
Also the fact that your PM knows that you are faking lends greater greater weight to management's decision to take disciplinary measures against you.(If they so decide)
The last two times, my PM did not ask me for any medical certificates. This time around, he wants me to produce my history of illness and medical reports. I have some scan and sonography reports(I had genuinely fallen ill 2 months before I went on leave) with me. I am planning to submit the same and a letter from my General Physician.
It was in good faith that your PM did not ask you to submit Medical certificate in support of your illness earlier. But now he must have seen through your ploy and is insisting that you produce Medical Certificate for your period of absence from work.
You have yourself stated that you have some scan and sonography reports when you had genuinely fallen ill two months BEFORE you went on leave and that you are planning to submit the same alongwith a letter from your General Pysician ( I suppose in support of the the two reports that you have).
Your falsehood is well established prima-facie by your own admission and you are liable for disciplinary action by the management.
Is there any grounds on which disciplinary proceedings can be initiated inspite of producing a certificate from my family doctor ?
Yes there are more than sufficient grounds for initiation of disciplinary proceedings against you.
Vasant Nair
Thanks and regards.[/QUOTE]
From India, Mumbai
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am employee of Infosys. I have taken unplanned leaves due to medical reasons, thrice so far(for about a month each time). But my PM(Project Manager) knows that I'm faking it,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The very fact that you are openly admitting that you were faking illness is sufficient ground to make you liable for disciplinary action.
Also the fact that your PM knows that you are faking lends greater greater weight to management's decision to take disciplinary measures against you.(If they so decide)
The last two times, my PM did not ask me for any medical certificates. This time around, he wants me to produce my history of illness and medical reports. I have some scan and sonography reports(I had genuinely fallen ill 2 months before I went on leave) with me. I am planning to submit the same and a letter from my General Physician.
It was in good faith that your PM did not ask you to submit Medical certificate in support of your illness earlier. But now he must have seen through your ploy and is insisting that you produce Medical Certificate for your period of absence from work.
You have yourself stated that you have some scan and sonography reports when you had genuinely fallen ill two months BEFORE you went on leave and that you are planning to submit the same alongwith a letter from your General Pysician ( I suppose in support of the the two reports that you have).
Your falsehood is well established prima-facie by your own admission and you are liable for disciplinary action by the management.
Is there any grounds on which disciplinary proceedings can be initiated inspite of producing a certificate from my family doctor ?
Yes there are more than sufficient grounds for initiation of disciplinary proceedings against you.
Vasant Nair
Thanks and regards.[/QUOTE]
From India, Mumbai
A management can issue a charge sheet to an employee alleging that he sneezed forcefully in the office resulting in some papers flying off the table causing some other employees running after such papers which ultimately resulted in a stampede! and ultimately terminate him from service.There is a prima facie case against him ! And no force on earth can prevent the management from acting in such ham-handed manner. But the question is whether such action will be found reasonable,legal and justified by the appropriate legal forum.Though there was a stampede, the HR manager should advise against issuing charge sheet because sneezing is an innocuous bodily action; not a willful malfeasance warranting punishment.
In the instant case, I reiterate, the management has not sufficient ground to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu soman,
HR Manager
From India, Madras
In the instant case, I reiterate, the management has not sufficient ground to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu soman,
HR Manager
From India, Madras
Dear Sanu,
Here in this case probably only you are putting the cart (legal action) well before the horse (departmental disciplinary action that is still on proposal stage).
It seems you have not properly read the main post by the employee. Better please re-read the very first post of the member, who has asked for the opinion whether the management can take any disciplinary action or not.
You have just jumped on legal action even whn the case is on proposal stage, which is not the question right now. Probably misinterpretations by people like you are the real cause of more litigation cases. You have admitted that disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. But when it has not been started yet, where is the question of any punishment or legal case?
From India, Delhi
Here in this case probably only you are putting the cart (legal action) well before the horse (departmental disciplinary action that is still on proposal stage).
It seems you have not properly read the main post by the employee. Better please re-read the very first post of the member, who has asked for the opinion whether the management can take any disciplinary action or not.
You have just jumped on legal action even whn the case is on proposal stage, which is not the question right now. Probably misinterpretations by people like you are the real cause of more litigation cases. You have admitted that disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. But when it has not been started yet, where is the question of any punishment or legal case?
From India, Delhi
Community Support and Knowledge-base on business, career and organisational prospects and issues - Register and Log In to CiteHR and post your query, download formats and be part of a fostered community of professionals.
Check LisCheck List ofr Disciplinary Proceedings Domestic Enquiry 11 Sep 09.doc