Dear seniors,
In my factory, a union has launched the V.S.S. scheme. However, some employees have been working for 20 years. Unfortunately, the factory has discovered that some individuals are working with fake academic certificates.
The manufacturing unit is located in Haryana. The company has informed employees that we are facing losses at this plant and are planning to relocate to Chennai.
Please provide suggestions from both the company's and employees' perspectives.
Thanks
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In my factory, a union has launched the V.S.S. scheme. However, some employees have been working for 20 years. Unfortunately, the factory has discovered that some individuals are working with fake academic certificates.
The manufacturing unit is located in Haryana. The company has informed employees that we are facing losses at this plant and are planning to relocate to Chennai.
Please provide suggestions from both the company's and employees' perspectives.
Thanks
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Dear Babhubal,
Falsification of documents at the time of joining is misconduct, and employees who have done this are liable for disciplinary action. However, why did you fail to detect falsification? It only goes to show that your company did not have a proper recruitment process.
Secondly, why was no audit conducted for 20 long years? Why was the irregularity only detected when your plant was not performing well, and you wanted to move out?
Despite the misconduct, those few workers have contributed to the growth of your company. Considering their contribution over the last two decades, I recommend that you pardon their misconduct.
Nonetheless, you may conduct a domestic enquiry to establish their misconduct. As a punitive measure, you may dismiss them from their jobs. However, when removing them, ensure to pay them their salary as per their notice period and gratuity as well.
Who selected these employees? Is he still working in your company? If yes, then poetic justice demands action against all the persons involved in the recruitment at that time.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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8222Falsification of documents at the time of joining is misconduct, and employees who have done this are liable for disciplinary action. However, why did you fail to detect falsification? It only goes to show that your company did not have a proper recruitment process.
Secondly, why was no audit conducted for 20 long years? Why was the irregularity only detected when your plant was not performing well, and you wanted to move out?
Despite the misconduct, those few workers have contributed to the growth of your company. Considering their contribution over the last two decades, I recommend that you pardon their misconduct.
Nonetheless, you may conduct a domestic enquiry to establish their misconduct. As a punitive measure, you may dismiss them from their jobs. However, when removing them, ensure to pay them their salary as per their notice period and gratuity as well.
Who selected these employees? Is he still working in your company? If yes, then poetic justice demands action against all the persons involved in the recruitment at that time.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Bahubal,
Your question "please suggest me from the company point of view and also from the employee's point of view" is quite vague!
You have started the discussion with reference to VSS but have not linked it appropriately with the real problem, if any exists, either with the employer or with the employees with fake academic certificates. Moreover, you have asked to suggest on two conflicting angles - from the company's point of view and also from the employee's point of view - when the company remained dormant all these 20 years and suddenly awakened to the fact that some employees continued to work for the entire duration. Additionally, it is not clear in what capacity, as an employer or as an employee, for what purpose - to take action against them or to allow them to avail VSS. You have also not mentioned what type of investigation was conducted and based on that, what action the company has taken or proposed against such employees who have been employed with fake academic certificates.
In fact, your question seems to be of mere academic interest with no real problem concerning the management or the employees.
Can you clarify all these points if you indeed have any issues or problems, and in what capacity in your company/factory?
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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Your question "please suggest me from the company point of view and also from the employee's point of view" is quite vague!
You have started the discussion with reference to VSS but have not linked it appropriately with the real problem, if any exists, either with the employer or with the employees with fake academic certificates. Moreover, you have asked to suggest on two conflicting angles - from the company's point of view and also from the employee's point of view - when the company remained dormant all these 20 years and suddenly awakened to the fact that some employees continued to work for the entire duration. Additionally, it is not clear in what capacity, as an employer or as an employee, for what purpose - to take action against them or to allow them to avail VSS. You have also not mentioned what type of investigation was conducted and based on that, what action the company has taken or proposed against such employees who have been employed with fake academic certificates.
In fact, your question seems to be of mere academic interest with no real problem concerning the management or the employees.
Can you clarify all these points if you indeed have any issues or problems, and in what capacity in your company/factory?
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Bahubal,
Both the seniors, Mr. Divekar and Mr. Dhingra, have already given you very good insight and a solution to your problem.
Hope you would not mind if I digress from hard-core HR lexicon, with reference to your problem, and talk about some other kind of long-term relationships that might shed some light on this.
During a discourse, a lady asked the new-age Guru about a marital problem, and while answering the query, the Guru recounted this:
"In divorce proceedings, in the West and developed countries, whenever the Court asks the couple, 'When did the problem in your marriage start?'
The wife would say, 'We had problems right from the very beginning. He was ALWAYS like that.'
When the same question would be put to the husband, the reply would invariably be the same!
This happens not in one case, but in almost every case, that the affected couple would say that their problem existed from the very beginning.
In many cases, the marriages are decades or more long. Even when the couples are more than seventy-eighty years old, they would give the same reply.
So a wise judge once remarked, if they had such serious problems from the beginning, why did they wait for decades until almost the end of their life!
Your company and employees' case seems to be similar.
As long as the company was doing well, you had no problem with the employees, their educational qualifications, and certifications.
Now, your company is having other plans, and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging up and finding more than 20 years old problems!
Hope the above anecdote gives you a proper perspective and helps solve your dilemma.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Both the seniors, Mr. Divekar and Mr. Dhingra, have already given you very good insight and a solution to your problem.
Hope you would not mind if I digress from hard-core HR lexicon, with reference to your problem, and talk about some other kind of long-term relationships that might shed some light on this.
During a discourse, a lady asked the new-age Guru about a marital problem, and while answering the query, the Guru recounted this:
"In divorce proceedings, in the West and developed countries, whenever the Court asks the couple, 'When did the problem in your marriage start?'
The wife would say, 'We had problems right from the very beginning. He was ALWAYS like that.'
When the same question would be put to the husband, the reply would invariably be the same!
This happens not in one case, but in almost every case, that the affected couple would say that their problem existed from the very beginning.
In many cases, the marriages are decades or more long. Even when the couples are more than seventy-eighty years old, they would give the same reply.
So a wise judge once remarked, if they had such serious problems from the beginning, why did they wait for decades until almost the end of their life!
Your company and employees' case seems to be similar.
As long as the company was doing well, you had no problem with the employees, their educational qualifications, and certifications.
Now, your company is having other plans, and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging up and finding more than 20 years old problems!
Hope the above anecdote gives you a proper perspective and helps solve your dilemma.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Bahu Bal,
It's my submission that:
1) Since the workers have been performing their jobs for a long time, they are all semi-skilled in their function and nature. It's your fault that you did not inquire about and check their credentials in the beginning. It's your weak point in legal proceedings, assessing the financial impact and liability.
2) They have served for 20 years. Try to resolve the matter in an amicable way and settle it. Since you have to shift the company's business, only a few may go with you.
3) As you stated, the company is in a loss, and your old workers are well aware of this. Try to settle things easily, either by hook or by crook. Otherwise, be prepared for legal proceedings, which will definitely be a tough deal.
Thank you.
From India
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It's my submission that:
1) Since the workers have been performing their jobs for a long time, they are all semi-skilled in their function and nature. It's your fault that you did not inquire about and check their credentials in the beginning. It's your weak point in legal proceedings, assessing the financial impact and liability.
2) They have served for 20 years. Try to resolve the matter in an amicable way and settle it. Since you have to shift the company's business, only a few may go with you.
3) As you stated, the company is in a loss, and your old workers are well aware of this. Try to settle things easily, either by hook or by crook. Otherwise, be prepared for legal proceedings, which will definitely be a tough deal.
Thank you.
From India
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Respected all,
I express gratitude for your valuable opinions. I think the issues could not be clearly expressed.
1. The company wants all permanent employees to accept the scheme offered as V. S. S. so that there are fewer legal hurdles and it's easier to relocate to Chennai.
2. The employees' union is not satisfied with the offer and has refused it.
3. Employees do not want to quit their jobs.
4. The company is looking for a loss prevention officer, and the manager has whispered to employees that the company will investigate and take action against those who do not have original certifications or are working with others' certificates.
That's why I wanted to know, in favor of the employees, what could be a better way for them. Please provide your valuable and concrete opinions.
Obliged,
Bahubal.
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I express gratitude for your valuable opinions. I think the issues could not be clearly expressed.
1. The company wants all permanent employees to accept the scheme offered as V. S. S. so that there are fewer legal hurdles and it's easier to relocate to Chennai.
2. The employees' union is not satisfied with the offer and has refused it.
3. Employees do not want to quit their jobs.
4. The company is looking for a loss prevention officer, and the manager has whispered to employees that the company will investigate and take action against those who do not have original certifications or are working with others' certificates.
That's why I wanted to know, in favor of the employees, what could be a better way for them. Please provide your valuable and concrete opinions.
Obliged,
Bahubal.
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Dear Bahubal,
Even after your clarification, the point is still not clear regarding your query from the perspective of both the employer and the employee. You asked, "Please suggest me from the company's point of view and also from the employee's point of view." Furthermore, you have not specified in what capacity within the company you are asking this query. The solution cannot be the same when considering the viewpoints of the management and the employees.
Therefore, not only you but also the members intending to provide their opinions must be very clear about what you want to know and for what purpose.
From India, Delhi
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Even after your clarification, the point is still not clear regarding your query from the perspective of both the employer and the employee. You asked, "Please suggest me from the company's point of view and also from the employee's point of view." Furthermore, you have not specified in what capacity within the company you are asking this query. The solution cannot be the same when considering the viewpoints of the management and the employees.
Therefore, not only you but also the members intending to provide their opinions must be very clear about what you want to know and for what purpose.
From India, Delhi
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"As long as the company was doing well, you had no problem with the employees, their educational qualifications, and certifications. Now, your company is having other plans, and you wish to shift to Chennai; so you have started digging up and finding more than 20 years old problems!
The nail has been hit on the head squarely. Labour welfare laws are in existence precisely to protect workers from such belated discovery of fake documents. (Of course, I never condone fake documents, but during initial checks 20 years ago, it should have been weeded out.) Company's action is clouded by different motives."
From India, Pune
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The nail has been hit on the head squarely. Labour welfare laws are in existence precisely to protect workers from such belated discovery of fake documents. (Of course, I never condone fake documents, but during initial checks 20 years ago, it should have been weeded out.) Company's action is clouded by different motives."
From India, Pune
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Dear Bahubal,
I concur with the views of all our learned members - particularly that of P.S. Dhingra doubting the very thread as a mere academic exercise to obtain probably right answers and that of Rajkumar linking the same to the belated reason cited for the divorce of a long-lived marriage as a ploy to shed off the surplus labor on some pretext or other. If I remember correctly, there is a judgment of the honorable High Court of Madhya Pradesh in the mid-80s that the order terminating an employee after due trial on the charge of having obtained the appointment on the basis of a fake certificate is not an order of dismissal but a declaration that the incumbent was never appointed. However, the timing of the decision to initiate action after a lapse of 20 years, that too when the management is bent upon the successful implementation of a scheme of voluntary retirement to facilitate the smooth transfer of the undertaking elsewhere. Therefore, it would be better to persuade the union to accept the proposal by offering more compensation.
From India, Salem
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I concur with the views of all our learned members - particularly that of P.S. Dhingra doubting the very thread as a mere academic exercise to obtain probably right answers and that of Rajkumar linking the same to the belated reason cited for the divorce of a long-lived marriage as a ploy to shed off the surplus labor on some pretext or other. If I remember correctly, there is a judgment of the honorable High Court of Madhya Pradesh in the mid-80s that the order terminating an employee after due trial on the charge of having obtained the appointment on the basis of a fake certificate is not an order of dismissal but a declaration that the incumbent was never appointed. However, the timing of the decision to initiate action after a lapse of 20 years, that too when the management is bent upon the successful implementation of a scheme of voluntary retirement to facilitate the smooth transfer of the undertaking elsewhere. Therefore, it would be better to persuade the union to accept the proposal by offering more compensation.
From India, Salem
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