Hi Chitra,
I fully agree with what Octavious has said. In fact, when I was going through the thread, the first thing that came to my mind was how the company name is disclosed. Anyhow, email communications, letters of appointment, etc., are good support for your case.
JMK
From India, Hyderabad
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6I fully agree with what Octavious has said. In fact, when I was going through the thread, the first thing that came to my mind was how the company name is disclosed. Anyhow, email communications, letters of appointment, etc., are good support for your case.
JMK
From India, Hyderabad
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However, the employee got on his knees and begged not to disclose the reasons for termination in a letter for the sake of his secure career. His request is being considered on humanitarian grounds, and the termination letter was issued accordingly. The company also paid him one month's due salary for his working period, along with other allowances like bonuses and leave pays.
Above facts are very important and, in fact, the turning point in the whole episode.
Termination of an employee could be on different grounds. In this case, right from the beginning, it appears that there was a case of bad behavior which led to the decision of his termination. However, if he had to be terminated on these grounds, there was a need to follow the established procedure of disciplinary actions in terms of relevant service conditions. He was required to be considered for any salary or notice period.
For reasons other than disciplinary grounds, if his services were to be terminated, there was only one option in this case: to follow the termination clause in his offer of appointment or other service conditions. If it is by either side through a notice for three months or salary in lieu thereof, the same should have been followed.
As neither of the above has been done, and you ended up terminating his services without assigning any reason by giving one month's salary, the terminated employee has a point. In my view, his demand for three months' salary in the given situation (not terminated on the grounds of discipline) holds water.
From India, Pune
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Above facts are very important and, in fact, the turning point in the whole episode.
Termination of an employee could be on different grounds. In this case, right from the beginning, it appears that there was a case of bad behavior which led to the decision of his termination. However, if he had to be terminated on these grounds, there was a need to follow the established procedure of disciplinary actions in terms of relevant service conditions. He was required to be considered for any salary or notice period.
For reasons other than disciplinary grounds, if his services were to be terminated, there was only one option in this case: to follow the termination clause in his offer of appointment or other service conditions. If it is by either side through a notice for three months or salary in lieu thereof, the same should have been followed.
As neither of the above has been done, and you ended up terminating his services without assigning any reason by giving one month's salary, the terminated employee has a point. In my view, his demand for three months' salary in the given situation (not terminated on the grounds of discipline) holds water.
From India, Pune
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Hello Chitralekha,
Many friends have contributed their valuable suggestions about this, but to win the case, proof is required. The court gives results based on proof only, and as they say, nothing is written.
You should create proof of his rudeness with subordinates and juniors in written form, backdated with reminders as 1, 2, 3. Create all proof of meetings regarding his behavior.
Contact the advocate for further guidance.
From India, Pune
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Many friends have contributed their valuable suggestions about this, but to win the case, proof is required. The court gives results based on proof only, and as they say, nothing is written.
You should create proof of his rudeness with subordinates and juniors in written form, backdated with reminders as 1, 2, 3. Create all proof of meetings regarding his behavior.
Contact the advocate for further guidance.
From India, Pune
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Hi Chitralekha,
My suggestion is very clear and simple - "no need to give him even one single day's salary and don't be afraid of this issue; otherwise, other employees will blackmail you in the future."
You are right, take a stand and set examples for others.
Chill HR
From India, Gurgaon
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My suggestion is very clear and simple - "no need to give him even one single day's salary and don't be afraid of this issue; otherwise, other employees will blackmail you in the future."
You are right, take a stand and set examples for others.
Chill HR
From India, Gurgaon
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Hi Chitralakha,
The termination of an employee's services under ref. is for certain misconduct as mentioned by you. But this is not duly proved either by notice/enquiry or any documentary evidence, which is required in the court. The domestic enquiry, which we conduct for misconducts mentioned in Standing Orders, is not required, but at least you could show to all employees that you have given ample opportunity. This could have sent a strong message in the organization.
If in the termination order you have mentioned the misconduct and related details for which you have terminated the services, then it's okay. But if you have merely terminated services without any reference to misconduct, then you have to pay notice salary.
I have mentioned the above because if his termination is set aside in the court, then the court can enhance the compensation.
Since the employee under ref. is not a workman as defined under the ID Act 1947, the remedy of re-instatement with or without full back wages is not available to him.
These types of incidences show how HR handles complicated issues.
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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The termination of an employee's services under ref. is for certain misconduct as mentioned by you. But this is not duly proved either by notice/enquiry or any documentary evidence, which is required in the court. The domestic enquiry, which we conduct for misconducts mentioned in Standing Orders, is not required, but at least you could show to all employees that you have given ample opportunity. This could have sent a strong message in the organization.
If in the termination order you have mentioned the misconduct and related details for which you have terminated the services, then it's okay. But if you have merely terminated services without any reference to misconduct, then you have to pay notice salary.
I have mentioned the above because if his termination is set aside in the court, then the court can enhance the compensation.
Since the employee under ref. is not a workman as defined under the ID Act 1947, the remedy of re-instatement with or without full back wages is not available to him.
These types of incidences show how HR handles complicated issues.
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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Dear Chitraleka,
I endorse the views of Mr. Govindsingnegi. The whole issue hinges on two aspects: 1. The notice period mentioned in your appointment letter and 2. The reason cited for termination in your termination letter.
It seems that you have not mentioned misconduct as the ground for termination in your termination letter. If so, you may not have a good case in a court of law in the absence of unequivocal evidence regarding the misbehavior/misconduct of the terminated employee. Of course, you have said there was an email circulation among the members of top management about his refusal to receive the notice. But it will be attacked by the employee's side as subjective evidence unless you have any other evidence pertaining to the ousted employee's deliberate refusal to receive the notice. As Mr. Govingsing rightly said, if you had sent a notice by R.P.A.D and if he had refused to receive the same, it would have been evidence of willful refusal to receive the notice. Since you have not done so, you cannot take a stand of willful refusal to receive the notice. Besides that, if you have obtained any written request from the employee for not mentioning misconduct as the reason for termination and consequently you have not mentioned the same reason based on humanitarian consideration, you can use that letter as evidence against him.
If you have not obtained any written request for not mentioning misconduct as the reason for termination, the terminated employee's claim for 3 months' compensation may be held correct by the Court. So it is prudent to pay him the compensation and treat such payment as expenditure to learn a lesson about people and procedures instead of wasting time, energy, and money on the legal process.
From India, Chennai
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I endorse the views of Mr. Govindsingnegi. The whole issue hinges on two aspects: 1. The notice period mentioned in your appointment letter and 2. The reason cited for termination in your termination letter.
It seems that you have not mentioned misconduct as the ground for termination in your termination letter. If so, you may not have a good case in a court of law in the absence of unequivocal evidence regarding the misbehavior/misconduct of the terminated employee. Of course, you have said there was an email circulation among the members of top management about his refusal to receive the notice. But it will be attacked by the employee's side as subjective evidence unless you have any other evidence pertaining to the ousted employee's deliberate refusal to receive the notice. As Mr. Govingsing rightly said, if you had sent a notice by R.P.A.D and if he had refused to receive the same, it would have been evidence of willful refusal to receive the notice. Since you have not done so, you cannot take a stand of willful refusal to receive the notice. Besides that, if you have obtained any written request from the employee for not mentioning misconduct as the reason for termination and consequently you have not mentioned the same reason based on humanitarian consideration, you can use that letter as evidence against him.
If you have not obtained any written request for not mentioning misconduct as the reason for termination, the terminated employee's claim for 3 months' compensation may be held correct by the Court. So it is prudent to pay him the compensation and treat such payment as expenditure to learn a lesson about people and procedures instead of wasting time, energy, and money on the legal process.
From India, Chennai
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HI, I want to know if the company is terminating any employee then what is the process and what has to company pay for the termination. Regards Nitesh M.S
From India, Bangalore
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From India, Bangalore
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Dear Chitralekha
SR HR ADM Officer
I have gone through your noting and also comments of many senior members. I know they are not wrong and may be administratively right up to some extent, may be they are too strict. I tell you for your future as one day you will be HR Head of some organisation and please remember this thing “If ever you are not left with any way out and have to sack someone due to reason except embezzlement, pay him all the dues including the leave pay etc. and show him your company is generous and it’s he who has forced you to sack him.
Anyway we go to present problem so if possible please submit the following to your MD.
1. It appears the COO of your Pune Unit is hiding something and maybe he was responsible to some extent for the rude behavior of that person towards some of the employees.
2. Your Company is not having any documentary proof to back the claims of your COO or HR.
3. Your HR has not followed the set procedures required before sacking of an official, that too at level of Sr. Finance Manager. I also presume that manager was quite efficient in his work as you don’t have any complaint about his efficiency.
4. Your MD was right in wishing to pay him the notice period salary, which your COO has declined due to his personal Vendetta against this Officer. Your Company does not have any prove to counter the claim of that manager in court of law.
Now come to the court case, So I tell you the outcome on the basis of given facts, that is your Company will lose this case and that too with cost and damages. Moreover if the Advocate appointed by the Manager is a real expert your company may be forced to take him back to service.
I feel to void all this botheration you may fix up a meeting with that manager by calling him to office. I doubt that person may not speak to the HR head as he was party in his sacking so if your MD agrees, request him to speak to the manager, that will not only pacify him and sort out the problem but also may be Company can get some information about some wrong doings at Pune Unit. To hide which that person was removed. More over if the person was efficient and honest there is a chance that he has rectified his mistakes and can be used at some other unit. Please remember honest Finance people are mostly blamed by dishonest employees as rude or arrogant.
One thing I am sure after meeting with MD and paying him the dues he will be pacified and agree to withdraw the court case.
One last thing remember always try to avoid sacking any employee and even if you have to sack one jut pay him generously unless he has committed some embezzlement so he should feel guilty for his mistakes.
From India, Delhi
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SR HR ADM Officer
I have gone through your noting and also comments of many senior members. I know they are not wrong and may be administratively right up to some extent, may be they are too strict. I tell you for your future as one day you will be HR Head of some organisation and please remember this thing “If ever you are not left with any way out and have to sack someone due to reason except embezzlement, pay him all the dues including the leave pay etc. and show him your company is generous and it’s he who has forced you to sack him.
Anyway we go to present problem so if possible please submit the following to your MD.
1. It appears the COO of your Pune Unit is hiding something and maybe he was responsible to some extent for the rude behavior of that person towards some of the employees.
2. Your Company is not having any documentary proof to back the claims of your COO or HR.
3. Your HR has not followed the set procedures required before sacking of an official, that too at level of Sr. Finance Manager. I also presume that manager was quite efficient in his work as you don’t have any complaint about his efficiency.
4. Your MD was right in wishing to pay him the notice period salary, which your COO has declined due to his personal Vendetta against this Officer. Your Company does not have any prove to counter the claim of that manager in court of law.
Now come to the court case, So I tell you the outcome on the basis of given facts, that is your Company will lose this case and that too with cost and damages. Moreover if the Advocate appointed by the Manager is a real expert your company may be forced to take him back to service.
I feel to void all this botheration you may fix up a meeting with that manager by calling him to office. I doubt that person may not speak to the HR head as he was party in his sacking so if your MD agrees, request him to speak to the manager, that will not only pacify him and sort out the problem but also may be Company can get some information about some wrong doings at Pune Unit. To hide which that person was removed. More over if the person was efficient and honest there is a chance that he has rectified his mistakes and can be used at some other unit. Please remember honest Finance people are mostly blamed by dishonest employees as rude or arrogant.
One thing I am sure after meeting with MD and paying him the dues he will be pacified and agree to withdraw the court case.
One last thing remember always try to avoid sacking any employee and even if you have to sack one jut pay him generously unless he has committed some embezzlement so he should feel guilty for his mistakes.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Chitra,
Please pay him three months' salary as mentioned in the appointment letter. Your company can't fight this case with successive drive. Here, you should take care when he was begging, not to disclose the termination reason on his full and final letter. You should have asked him to write an apology letter by stating about his career and by considering his request not to disclose the termination issue.
The time has passed now, and there is no need to fight further.
Best Regards,
Sajid
From India, Delhi
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Please pay him three months' salary as mentioned in the appointment letter. Your company can't fight this case with successive drive. Here, you should take care when he was begging, not to disclose the termination reason on his full and final letter. You should have asked him to write an apology letter by stating about his career and by considering his request not to disclose the termination issue.
The time has passed now, and there is no need to fight further.
Best Regards,
Sajid
From India, Delhi
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Dear Chitra Lekha,
After going through the above deliberations on the subject by you and others, I have some differing opinions.
If you choose to fight the case, it is acceptable as long as you are in the right. However, consider this scenario: if a company employee leaves and joins another company, speaking positively about your company, wouldn't that enhance the image of your company? In this specific case, there is clear evidence of the employee misbehaving despite receiving several warnings and counseling. Nevertheless, looking at the other side, there are humanitarian aspects to consider as well. The reasons for misbehavior could stem from illness, family issues, or frustrations.
Upon deciding to terminate the employee, it would be humane if your company offers the employee 3 months' notice pay and closes the matter once and for all. This approach would resolve many headaches and financial burdens for both sides (employer and terminated employee). Ultimately, the issue at hand is the payment of 3 months' notice pay. Additionally, it is important to take into account the employee's length of service.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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After going through the above deliberations on the subject by you and others, I have some differing opinions.
If you choose to fight the case, it is acceptable as long as you are in the right. However, consider this scenario: if a company employee leaves and joins another company, speaking positively about your company, wouldn't that enhance the image of your company? In this specific case, there is clear evidence of the employee misbehaving despite receiving several warnings and counseling. Nevertheless, looking at the other side, there are humanitarian aspects to consider as well. The reasons for misbehavior could stem from illness, family issues, or frustrations.
Upon deciding to terminate the employee, it would be humane if your company offers the employee 3 months' notice pay and closes the matter once and for all. This approach would resolve many headaches and financial burdens for both sides (employer and terminated employee). Ultimately, the issue at hand is the payment of 3 months' notice pay. Additionally, it is important to take into account the employee's length of service.
Regards,
From India, Mumbai
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