Dear HR Managers / Executives
You'll agree & believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after delibrate thought from Corporate Managers including the HR managers and after due consideration of Manpower requirements, strategic HR planning etc etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position ON HOLD after they have received a good number of profiles from consultants. Obviously they are cheating the consultants of their hardwork by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame execuses "which are outside their control".
Position "ON HOLD" - Means "Thank you you foolish consultants, now we have enough number of CV's which we can play around with and contact on our own after some time!"
This happens repeatedly with lot of corporate clients. Its a shame on the HR Fraternity.
Then should I believe that the corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is going on in their own companies? If they are changing theri requirements repeatedly, are not competent enough to know what exactly they are looking for?
This is all Hogwash. We all know they are creating their own database / pipe line of candidates.
Mr HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying & stop cheating the consultants. I will equate this to stealing somebodies fruits of labour & hardwork.
Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
4You'll agree & believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after delibrate thought from Corporate Managers including the HR managers and after due consideration of Manpower requirements, strategic HR planning etc etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position ON HOLD after they have received a good number of profiles from consultants. Obviously they are cheating the consultants of their hardwork by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame execuses "which are outside their control".
Position "ON HOLD" - Means "Thank you you foolish consultants, now we have enough number of CV's which we can play around with and contact on our own after some time!"
This happens repeatedly with lot of corporate clients. Its a shame on the HR Fraternity.
Then should I believe that the corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is going on in their own companies? If they are changing theri requirements repeatedly, are not competent enough to know what exactly they are looking for?
This is all Hogwash. We all know they are creating their own database / pipe line of candidates.
Mr HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying & stop cheating the consultants. I will equate this to stealing somebodies fruits of labour & hardwork.
Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
Depeds on the situation.
Lemme give u a feel of what happens internally.
After the recruiter (corpo) tries really hard, the Hiring Manager says "Bull Sh*&^" . Hire a consultant nad give me good profiles.
After consultant sends profiles, hiring manager says:
"Even they are not doing a job better than you!"
finally receive an email from Hiring Manager - look, I have a referral, why not hire him? I spoke to the GM abt this.
:-) Cool right?
Then next case:
Corp recruiter works on a profile, hiring manager says "these are ok, but I need more"
Consultant hired, hiring manager says "Na- I need MORE"
And u know what happens???? At the end - we get a a mail "we are currently in a position where we do not need this person immediately, so wait till I tell...
Now start hunting for XXX position. Immediate. I need interviews to be scheduled tomorrow. What abt the other position I tld you in the morning? Where are the profiles?
You have consultants working for you., where are the profiles?"
Dear Sir/ma'am,
One thing you need to understand is - the final authority is not the HR. The deciding authorty is mostly not interested in talking to consultants.
And also remember, sometimes, the resumes even the corp HR forwards to the hiring manager, is sent to outside companies by the tech head or hiring manager himself. Cant help. This happens everywhere.
Everywhere.
When you ask why HR prople have problems with consultants - one of my frens (with an MNC and - I would say, they have all the ebst systems), one day called me and informed a shcoking reality. The technical Head of that company, asked for profiles from Job boards from the Corporate HR, and once teh profiles were forwarded - he sent the same to some other corporate HR - later on investigation it was found that he represnetd himself as a consulatnt with 15 yrs of experience;-)
Trust me - its not to make a fool out of you. Situations are like that.
I am sorry if my experience is too small to have answered your white hair question! ;-)
Jus kidding..relax!
From India, Madras
Lemme give u a feel of what happens internally.
After the recruiter (corpo) tries really hard, the Hiring Manager says "Bull Sh*&^" . Hire a consultant nad give me good profiles.
After consultant sends profiles, hiring manager says:
"Even they are not doing a job better than you!"
finally receive an email from Hiring Manager - look, I have a referral, why not hire him? I spoke to the GM abt this.
:-) Cool right?
Then next case:
Corp recruiter works on a profile, hiring manager says "these are ok, but I need more"
Consultant hired, hiring manager says "Na- I need MORE"
And u know what happens???? At the end - we get a a mail "we are currently in a position where we do not need this person immediately, so wait till I tell...
Now start hunting for XXX position. Immediate. I need interviews to be scheduled tomorrow. What abt the other position I tld you in the morning? Where are the profiles?
You have consultants working for you., where are the profiles?"
Dear Sir/ma'am,
One thing you need to understand is - the final authority is not the HR. The deciding authorty is mostly not interested in talking to consultants.
And also remember, sometimes, the resumes even the corp HR forwards to the hiring manager, is sent to outside companies by the tech head or hiring manager himself. Cant help. This happens everywhere.
Everywhere.
When you ask why HR prople have problems with consultants - one of my frens (with an MNC and - I would say, they have all the ebst systems), one day called me and informed a shcoking reality. The technical Head of that company, asked for profiles from Job boards from the Corporate HR, and once teh profiles were forwarded - he sent the same to some other corporate HR - later on investigation it was found that he represnetd himself as a consulatnt with 15 yrs of experience;-)
Trust me - its not to make a fool out of you. Situations are like that.
I am sorry if my experience is too small to have answered your white hair question! ;-)
Jus kidding..relax!
From India, Madras
Dear Asha Thanks for the insight. Who do you think then should be blamed for wasting whole lot of efforts of everybody. The senior Management? Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
From India, Chandigarh
Not the Senior Management - Never.
Had I switched over to a consulting profile, I would definitely check teh following:
How soon the position is required to be closed?
WHat has been the interview process as of now (anyone on hold?)?
IS this a new position? (possibilities of the position going on hold is much higher)
Check the work history of teh client with other consultants
Was I recommended to them?
I will request a con-call with the Hiring Manager (state that as the business work methodology) - will not accept something that the corpo would want to deviate, unless and until it makes sense
I will not blame anyone for position going on hold (becos I have experienced as an internal recruiter - some reasons cannot be explained to outside ppl)
As a consultant, I would not just load my client with resumes...maybe a set of 5 on-dot profiles. I will keep constant check with candidates and follow-up with them in their client interactions. If client says that the position is on hold..my dialogue "Oh ok, can we expect something in a weeks time? No? Alrite - my candidates have been constantly asking for updates, so let me do this, as of now there is another client who might need such profiles. I shall send it across to them if YOU say that YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM WITHIN THE NEXT 1 MONTH"
From India, Madras
Had I switched over to a consulting profile, I would definitely check teh following:
How soon the position is required to be closed?
WHat has been the interview process as of now (anyone on hold?)?
IS this a new position? (possibilities of the position going on hold is much higher)
Check the work history of teh client with other consultants
Was I recommended to them?
I will request a con-call with the Hiring Manager (state that as the business work methodology) - will not accept something that the corpo would want to deviate, unless and until it makes sense
I will not blame anyone for position going on hold (becos I have experienced as an internal recruiter - some reasons cannot be explained to outside ppl)
As a consultant, I would not just load my client with resumes...maybe a set of 5 on-dot profiles. I will keep constant check with candidates and follow-up with them in their client interactions. If client says that the position is on hold..my dialogue "Oh ok, can we expect something in a weeks time? No? Alrite - my candidates have been constantly asking for updates, so let me do this, as of now there is another client who might need such profiles. I shall send it across to them if YOU say that YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM WITHIN THE NEXT 1 MONTH"
From India, Madras
Dear Asha
Continuing from your remarks on the earlier thread;
Having said that, I am unable to understand how a mature person (age has nothing o do with maturity) like you is unable to see/judge the issue objectively ???? :?:
Although I have seen only one side of it (Corp HR); I tend to agree with the aggrieved GHA; coz I know for sure that Corporate guys (that includes Fin & Actt as well - I go to them to enable early release of their outstanding bills) resent (to put it mildly) with a capital R; the Consultants (unless it is one of the big MNC outfits or the old reputed ones).
************************************************** *****
But this time, you have hit the nail bang on the head : :icon1:
I particularly liked the last para. Good strategy - and should be adopted by all if they think they are being cheated.
I have two more observations to make :
Finally, getting down to the brass-tacks; I do empathise with the insecurity felt by the consultants; they don't have a 'copyright' on the CV's nor they can bind the job-applicants under any contract; and so, are at the mercy of the sardonically gleeful Corporate HR.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
Continuing from your remarks on the earlier thread;
- Yes; it is very obvious. But, in fact, that was the purpose - to highlight abt the corp HR people being bad. :-P
- Well, its a common courtesy to express thanks for support. :icon1:
- Somehow, I agree with his/her remarks (experience does have its uses) about Amish Bhatt :-D
Having said that, I am unable to understand how a mature person (age has nothing o do with maturity) like you is unable to see/judge the issue objectively ???? :?:
Although I have seen only one side of it (Corp HR); I tend to agree with the aggrieved GHA; coz I know for sure that Corporate guys (that includes Fin & Actt as well - I go to them to enable early release of their outstanding bills) resent (to put it mildly) with a capital R; the Consultants (unless it is one of the big MNC outfits or the old reputed ones).
************************************************** *****
But this time, you have hit the nail bang on the head : :icon1:
I particularly liked the last para. Good strategy - and should be adopted by all if they think they are being cheated.
I have two more observations to make :
- I tend to agree that Consultants do not do their homework; don't train their people/associate well; do not 'practice' Key Account Management system; and have not been sensitized to the pressures and the whims of top management that befalls the HR people. Just recall the nightmare of the Interview Day - from seating arrangement, keeping tabs on interview panel, verifying documents, reimbursement of travelling expenses; and the occassional/frequent postponement of Interviews...... the list seems to be endless.
- Personally, I haven't come across a case of such "cheating" of denying their dues and CV's sent by Consultants being used. There are two reasons for it :
- Cos. themselves have their login id & account with various job portals to assess the database of CV's and call up candidates on their own.
- Consultants keep a tab on such candidates whose CV's they have sent. In fact, I know an extreme case where a candidate has come on his own and got selected. Now this candidate (as stated by him, later ) had met the consultant who has forwarded the CV to various other companies (for similar positions); yet the aggressive consultant (who came to know of his appointment from him) raised a dispute claiming that the candidate was sent by him !
- Cos. themselves have their login id & account with various job portals to assess the database of CV's and call up candidates on their own.
Finally, getting down to the brass-tacks; I do empathise with the insecurity felt by the consultants; they don't have a 'copyright' on the CV's nor they can bind the job-applicants under any contract; and so, are at the mercy of the sardonically gleeful Corporate HR.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
Dear Raj & Asha
Thanks a ton!
Finally some concrete & practical suggestions have started to come in!
We pride ourselves in the fact that we have worked out most of the things mentioned by you & Asha. We think recruitments day in day out. We are process driven and have 32 Steps layed down right from BD till payment received. Each step has a detailed procedure with contigencies / exception handling , a detailed script on the way to communicate with all stake holders ( Clients , candiadtes , internal commn etc)
We have Key Account Managers for Multiple accounts who have a good knowledge about the industry. They are encouraged to know and keep tab on the client's ins & outs. The accounts even to the consultants have been distributed keeping their comfort level, experience & preferences so that they are enthusiatically invloved with the clients.
We work through a customized Applicant tracking system and have built our own database over the years through referrals. We have strong techniques using the internet to hunt for candidates. We have trained our consultants to search for candidates using various methods without resorting to job portals.
Every Saturday we have a 2 Hour Training session which is intesive and exciting as we cover all topics related to Recruitments, HRD, processes, Soft skills, Technical aspects etc.
....I am telling you all this to show that we take our job seriously and know what happens at the other end. We cater to that too. But still we get cheated..and we know we are being cheated..but can't do anything.
I agree the profiles are available on the portals. But it takes selling (the company & the position) to attract good / passive candidates. Several times we have convinced the candidate for considering the opening (with success) AFTER the client has failed to attract a particular candidate. Recruitments is a selling job. If I have been able to sell a position to the candidate he is damn well my candidate!- Portal or No portal.
How we sell to the candidate is again a very delibrate and studied process keeping various Psychological hooks. We are trying to take recruitments to the Next level..and here we get bossed by Jr HR executives who don't even know a JD well, can't write one. Search for the CV's sent by us using various keywords (Name, Company, etc). It is easy. You send me a CV without contact details and remove the name too. I'll send you back the original CV before you can shut down your PC. They do this all the time and declare the CV duplicate.
Some times the candidate has NOT even heard about the company and we get to hear from Corporate HR -"we have already spoken to the candidate and he is under consideration" ...Wow! I know candidate lie sometimes but we have ways of checking that out and send only profiles who have NOT been approached at all. Still they are "Duplicate".
Mr HR Manager & his team cheat us, repeatedly. After all they have to justify their existence in their organisations. We help them do that and they stab us behind our backs.
I consider this as a "Character" issue and since it is so wide spread I can say we it is an "Indian Character"
Idhar, sab chalta hai!
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
Thanks a ton!
Finally some concrete & practical suggestions have started to come in!
We pride ourselves in the fact that we have worked out most of the things mentioned by you & Asha. We think recruitments day in day out. We are process driven and have 32 Steps layed down right from BD till payment received. Each step has a detailed procedure with contigencies / exception handling , a detailed script on the way to communicate with all stake holders ( Clients , candiadtes , internal commn etc)
We have Key Account Managers for Multiple accounts who have a good knowledge about the industry. They are encouraged to know and keep tab on the client's ins & outs. The accounts even to the consultants have been distributed keeping their comfort level, experience & preferences so that they are enthusiatically invloved with the clients.
We work through a customized Applicant tracking system and have built our own database over the years through referrals. We have strong techniques using the internet to hunt for candidates. We have trained our consultants to search for candidates using various methods without resorting to job portals.
Every Saturday we have a 2 Hour Training session which is intesive and exciting as we cover all topics related to Recruitments, HRD, processes, Soft skills, Technical aspects etc.
....I am telling you all this to show that we take our job seriously and know what happens at the other end. We cater to that too. But still we get cheated..and we know we are being cheated..but can't do anything.
I agree the profiles are available on the portals. But it takes selling (the company & the position) to attract good / passive candidates. Several times we have convinced the candidate for considering the opening (with success) AFTER the client has failed to attract a particular candidate. Recruitments is a selling job. If I have been able to sell a position to the candidate he is damn well my candidate!- Portal or No portal.
How we sell to the candidate is again a very delibrate and studied process keeping various Psychological hooks. We are trying to take recruitments to the Next level..and here we get bossed by Jr HR executives who don't even know a JD well, can't write one. Search for the CV's sent by us using various keywords (Name, Company, etc). It is easy. You send me a CV without contact details and remove the name too. I'll send you back the original CV before you can shut down your PC. They do this all the time and declare the CV duplicate.
Some times the candidate has NOT even heard about the company and we get to hear from Corporate HR -"we have already spoken to the candidate and he is under consideration" ...Wow! I know candidate lie sometimes but we have ways of checking that out and send only profiles who have NOT been approached at all. Still they are "Duplicate".
Mr HR Manager & his team cheat us, repeatedly. After all they have to justify their existence in their organisations. We help them do that and they stab us behind our backs.
I consider this as a "Character" issue and since it is so wide spread I can say we it is an "Indian Character"
Idhar, sab chalta hai!
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
See.. to some extent i agree with your comments but its not fair blaming on Crp HR for the entire episode. You should also understand, HR is the person acts as an mediator b/w Sr Mgmt and the Associates. Should also remember, HR is not given entire powers in most of the Organisations, we are just frontenders.. Most thankless job in this industry...:)
-Shailender Reddy
From India, Hyderabad
-Shailender Reddy
From India, Hyderabad
Dear GHA,
Pls dont put it as Indian Character. I haev had a bad experience with a US client - Merck Pharmaceuticals. I worked so hard for their positions, and being in this buisness, you will definitely know the amnt of documentation and quality we maintain for International clients (ours is ISO certified).
After giving almost 200 candidates for 32 locations across the US - I learnt from the VP - Recruitments that the HIRING MANAGER was faking all the positions. No such positions existed...and in the process, one of my candidates were placed, but the Hiring Manager did not inform us. Luckily I had access to their ATS and found it out.
Later the Hiring Manager was fired due to a few other mis handling too.
So it was my first experience and lesson on "Never worship the client" . ALways get to the core of the reality and find out if the company is truly hiring.
My experience with Unisys was wonderful - they have the perfect hiring strategy.
Let me tell you, its individual attitude of the employee that can change the way an outsider looks at the company. Pls dont put is as the Indian Way (oops, I am sensitive when someone points my country out. Again - I may be blinded with this affair with my country, havent traveled outside, and think that even if I travel outside I would keep my country as the first option for anything I consider best - you see...blinded with love - one sided I guess ;-) )
From India, Madras
Pls dont put it as Indian Character. I haev had a bad experience with a US client - Merck Pharmaceuticals. I worked so hard for their positions, and being in this buisness, you will definitely know the amnt of documentation and quality we maintain for International clients (ours is ISO certified).
After giving almost 200 candidates for 32 locations across the US - I learnt from the VP - Recruitments that the HIRING MANAGER was faking all the positions. No such positions existed...and in the process, one of my candidates were placed, but the Hiring Manager did not inform us. Luckily I had access to their ATS and found it out.
Later the Hiring Manager was fired due to a few other mis handling too.
So it was my first experience and lesson on "Never worship the client" . ALways get to the core of the reality and find out if the company is truly hiring.
My experience with Unisys was wonderful - they have the perfect hiring strategy.
Let me tell you, its individual attitude of the employee that can change the way an outsider looks at the company. Pls dont put is as the Indian Way (oops, I am sensitive when someone points my country out. Again - I may be blinded with this affair with my country, havent traveled outside, and think that even if I travel outside I would keep my country as the first option for anything I consider best - you see...blinded with love - one sided I guess ;-) )
From India, Madras
Hi i agree with you but i think by doing this act they are being loyal to the company and working for what they are paid for .consultants dont have an association or some body to fight for their prblems and rights nor do we have some defined status of a consultant .so we are at there mercy and easily replaceable
From India, New Delhi
From India, New Delhi
Anothe point GHA:
What happens is, already the resumes on job boards are downloaded, and a few corporate HRs send it to teh technical manager for shortlisting. The technical managers take their own sweet time in responsing. In this time you may have spoken to one nice candidate - whose resume has already been forwarded to the tech manager.
So - technically the candidate is in process of "Consideration" already. Only if the tech mgr nods his head - the corp hr initiates a conversation.
I am telling you - make sure the candidate has not put his resume on job boards. Even if they did, talk to the client and ask them who are the candidates in process so that repetition will be nil. You can ask for the names alone, no harm.
From India, Madras
What happens is, already the resumes on job boards are downloaded, and a few corporate HRs send it to teh technical manager for shortlisting. The technical managers take their own sweet time in responsing. In this time you may have spoken to one nice candidate - whose resume has already been forwarded to the tech manager.
So - technically the candidate is in process of "Consideration" already. Only if the tech mgr nods his head - the corp hr initiates a conversation.
I am telling you - make sure the candidate has not put his resume on job boards. Even if they did, talk to the client and ask them who are the candidates in process so that repetition will be nil. You can ask for the names alone, no harm.
From India, Madras
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