Dear friends,
It is really a very good discussion more or less like a brain-storming session.I think Ford Jr would not have raked up his brain to such an extent before sacking Lee Iyacocca. But as Mr.T.S.K.Raman has rightly said it is very difficult to handle a disciplinary issue like the present one when the trade union is highly militant and the management is very hesitant.It is just like a tiny ant getting deep into the ear-hole of a giant elephant.So, given the odds so unfavourable, it is for Mr.Dash to decide whether the extreme action of termination of employment of the lady is warranted so quickly.On the contrary, as some members suggested he can let the noose loose for some more time by awarding her gradual punishments like warning, proportionate wage-cut, punitive suspension etc in the ascending order with the written approval of his oscillating boss and the same time mustering the open support of other members of staff of the office for the correction course.In the meanwhile, he along with his boss bring it to the notice of the C.E.O so as to facilitate a dialogue between the top union leader and the top management for a peaceful solution like voluntary separation paving way for out-sourcing of the job.Any other hasty action by himself triggered by ego trip would end up like the hunter being hunted.
From India, Salem
6018It is really a very good discussion more or less like a brain-storming session.I think Ford Jr would not have raked up his brain to such an extent before sacking Lee Iyacocca. But as Mr.T.S.K.Raman has rightly said it is very difficult to handle a disciplinary issue like the present one when the trade union is highly militant and the management is very hesitant.It is just like a tiny ant getting deep into the ear-hole of a giant elephant.So, given the odds so unfavourable, it is for Mr.Dash to decide whether the extreme action of termination of employment of the lady is warranted so quickly.On the contrary, as some members suggested he can let the noose loose for some more time by awarding her gradual punishments like warning, proportionate wage-cut, punitive suspension etc in the ascending order with the written approval of his oscillating boss and the same time mustering the open support of other members of staff of the office for the correction course.In the meanwhile, he along with his boss bring it to the notice of the C.E.O so as to facilitate a dialogue between the top union leader and the top management for a peaceful solution like voluntary separation paving way for out-sourcing of the job.Any other hasty action by himself triggered by ego trip would end up like the hunter being hunted.
From India, Salem
Dash must be a blessed person indeed.
I made my points, but this one from Mr. M. Umakanthan, coming from his experience and also from his capacity, as Additional Commissioner of Labour (RTD), is ultimate. I'm feeling humbled, with his appreciation in quoting me as a reference which was absolutely unexpected, but brings me enormous delight.
From India, Hyderabad
I made my points, but this one from Mr. M. Umakanthan, coming from his experience and also from his capacity, as Additional Commissioner of Labour (RTD), is ultimate. I'm feeling humbled, with his appreciation in quoting me as a reference which was absolutely unexpected, but brings me enormous delight.
From India, Hyderabad
As mentioned by another member, best is to collect evidence over a period of time, issue show cause notice/warnings in writing, hold a disciplinary and present the evidence, and then as per legal right of the employer over a ``proven'' irresponsible employee fire him/her with the notice period pay. You want to do all you can to not come to this point, but if the employee is not working in the companies interest, it is in the best interest to not have such an employee on the roll.
BIC
From India, Ahmedabad
BIC
From India, Ahmedabad
Dear friends
I had been following this thread, but desisted from commenting as the responses were quite adequate; and the member who initiated it had not participated again with more inputs. However, I am putting in my views, as requested by one of our member friend.
Discipline management is one of the toughest and challenging task for an HR manager, as not only it is vital for the organization; but also for the reason that all the OCCUPATIONAL HAZARDs of HR are found in this one category of assignment. Apart from the loss of job and reputation, as pointed out by Mr. TSK Raman with a true case; there has too been many instances of HR professionals losing their life and limbs on account of it.
Although it is advisable to act according to Douglas McGregor's "Hot Stove Rule", however for matters which are delayed or those dealing with only performance issues, should be dealt with patience and a clear mind.
The point at issue has to be made clear; whether it is a "performance issue" or a "disciplinary issue" ?
It has been made out to be the latter; either because Mr. Dash's boss wants him to "fix" the person, or he has lost patience; or just the punitive HR instinct of being "trigger-happy".
In my humble opinion, it should be seen as a performance issue. The following questions need to be responded to by the concerned member Mr. Dash.
- Its given that she has been appointed on Compassionate ground. Its a well-known fact that people who are employed under such exigencies, are actually not 'employable' as they have never considered taking up employment. However, they are forced to take up employment due to the tragedy. They have to be made employable and this takes some time.
What is her length of service. or when was she appointed ?
Since she is illiterate, and its most likely that she may be from a rural area, where people are not exposed to the requirements of a regular employment.
Was she given any training (informal) for her job ?? By way of even instructions or demonstration ?? Whether she has been made aware of her role in keeping the office clean and tidy ?? How is she being dealt with by others ??
What is her age and physical health ??
What was the designation of her late husband ?? Does she resent the job of a sweeper ?? Are there any other member in her family who could have been provided with a suitable job ??
As an HR, did you try sincerely to understand her problem or what prevents her from doing her job in the best possible manner ??
Finally, your boss advised you :
"5. My boss is telling me, you are the HR, use your brain and sort out the whole thing. But certainly he also fears the consequences if we sack the employee."
Considering the first part of his instructions; did you brain-storm on it and came up with any creative solution ??
One of the member had given a very imaginative and apt suggestion :
Did you try to communicate with her in the most humane manner ?? I can understand the language barrier; and this is the reason why good management insists that the front-line HR must be conversant with the local language.
I think your answers will guide you in the proper direction.
This is not a Disciplinary issue, as no indiscipline has been committed to call for Charge-sheet or Termination of service.
Please look at this from a purely Performance issue and act accordingly without any prejudice; and try to provide some respect for a crucial and essential, albeit lowly; job of cleaning and keeping the place neat and hygienic.
You can provide some elements of job enlargement and job enrichment by allowing her to decide the cleaning schedules, cleaning materials and cleaning equipments etc.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
I had been following this thread, but desisted from commenting as the responses were quite adequate; and the member who initiated it had not participated again with more inputs. However, I am putting in my views, as requested by one of our member friend.
Discipline management is one of the toughest and challenging task for an HR manager, as not only it is vital for the organization; but also for the reason that all the OCCUPATIONAL HAZARDs of HR are found in this one category of assignment. Apart from the loss of job and reputation, as pointed out by Mr. TSK Raman with a true case; there has too been many instances of HR professionals losing their life and limbs on account of it.
Although it is advisable to act according to Douglas McGregor's "Hot Stove Rule", however for matters which are delayed or those dealing with only performance issues, should be dealt with patience and a clear mind.
The point at issue has to be made clear; whether it is a "performance issue" or a "disciplinary issue" ?
It has been made out to be the latter; either because Mr. Dash's boss wants him to "fix" the person, or he has lost patience; or just the punitive HR instinct of being "trigger-happy".
In my humble opinion, it should be seen as a performance issue. The following questions need to be responded to by the concerned member Mr. Dash.
- Its given that she has been appointed on Compassionate ground. Its a well-known fact that people who are employed under such exigencies, are actually not 'employable' as they have never considered taking up employment. However, they are forced to take up employment due to the tragedy. They have to be made employable and this takes some time.
What is her length of service. or when was she appointed ?
Since she is illiterate, and its most likely that she may be from a rural area, where people are not exposed to the requirements of a regular employment.
Was she given any training (informal) for her job ?? By way of even instructions or demonstration ?? Whether she has been made aware of her role in keeping the office clean and tidy ?? How is she being dealt with by others ??
What is her age and physical health ??
What was the designation of her late husband ?? Does she resent the job of a sweeper ?? Are there any other member in her family who could have been provided with a suitable job ??
As an HR, did you try sincerely to understand her problem or what prevents her from doing her job in the best possible manner ??
Finally, your boss advised you :
"5. My boss is telling me, you are the HR, use your brain and sort out the whole thing. But certainly he also fears the consequences if we sack the employee."
Considering the first part of his instructions; did you brain-storm on it and came up with any creative solution ??
One of the member had given a very imaginative and apt suggestion :
Did you try to communicate with her in the most humane manner ?? I can understand the language barrier; and this is the reason why good management insists that the front-line HR must be conversant with the local language.
I think your answers will guide you in the proper direction.
This is not a Disciplinary issue, as no indiscipline has been committed to call for Charge-sheet or Termination of service.
Please look at this from a purely Performance issue and act accordingly without any prejudice; and try to provide some respect for a crucial and essential, albeit lowly; job of cleaning and keeping the place neat and hygienic.
You can provide some elements of job enlargement and job enrichment by allowing her to decide the cleaning schedules, cleaning materials and cleaning equipments etc.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
Dear All,
Please check the terms of appointment letter's terms & conditions of the concerned, further check the Standing order-Rule,
If there is a condition regarding the assign another work/ transfer to another department, go ahead with that, or Collect evidence as mentioned earlier about her coming late, non-performance of duty, disobeying the orders etc., and discuss this issue with the worker's committee and try to solve this issue.
Jitendra Parmar
Please check the terms of appointment letter's terms & conditions of the concerned, further check the Standing order-Rule,
If there is a condition regarding the assign another work/ transfer to another department, go ahead with that, or Collect evidence as mentioned earlier about her coming late, non-performance of duty, disobeying the orders etc., and discuss this issue with the worker's committee and try to solve this issue.
Jitendra Parmar
Mr. DASH,
See First of All , Seat with her and say that every time i have to hear from my boos regarding cleanliness .
So i requet you to please come in time and keep the office clean before this time.
Do these exercise 3 times more , single handedly ,
Sweeper are the last level employee so be mature and try to convince by your words only,
Request her , all your problems will be solved.
Regards,
Badal
From India, Ahmadabad
See First of All , Seat with her and say that every time i have to hear from my boos regarding cleanliness .
So i requet you to please come in time and keep the office clean before this time.
Do these exercise 3 times more , single handedly ,
Sweeper are the last level employee so be mature and try to convince by your words only,
Request her , all your problems will be solved.
Regards,
Badal
From India, Ahmadabad
Hello,
As pointed out keep collecting evidence,keep telling your boss how sensitive this matter is and what could be th implications of a hurried action.Procastinate.But keep collecting.Raise the matter casually(off the record) to union guys who may be in your favour.If possible you may try a different approach.Dont take any action.Dont give her any work.Get work done by another guy(get approval for a new hire).Just make her sit out her time and take salary for free(after all that is what she is doing).Maybe this Gandhigiri will work.
Pavan
From India, Mumbai
As pointed out keep collecting evidence,keep telling your boss how sensitive this matter is and what could be th implications of a hurried action.Procastinate.But keep collecting.Raise the matter casually(off the record) to union guys who may be in your favour.If possible you may try a different approach.Dont take any action.Dont give her any work.Get work done by another guy(get approval for a new hire).Just make her sit out her time and take salary for free(after all that is what she is doing).Maybe this Gandhigiri will work.
Pavan
From India, Mumbai
Dear Sirs,
I sincerely thank you for all your support and suggestions.
Before three days, we had a small tea party at our office on occasion of farewell to a senior staff member who was transferred. In the party, my director, executives, union members and almost all staff were present. During the party I started a friendly conversation with the Union leader who was surrounded by his supporters. During the conversation I raised the issue very lightly. Some other colleagues like our System Analyst, Security Manager etc supported me as they are also fed-up with the lady.
I just wanted to convince the union that, whatever she is doing is wrong. I did not raise any question on suspension/memo/dismissal/action etc. As it was a big gathering, others also joined us and the Union Secretary agreed that it is wrong, whatever she did so far and assured us improvement.
After the same, I can mark some positive results. She is coming and going in time. As I can not comment on the quality of the work as very good, still it is better than before. I hope the same to be continued. I hope, it will go smoothly upto August (Union elections scheduled).
I expect my respected seniors' guidance on the matter and welcome comments.
Truly...
A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
I sincerely thank you for all your support and suggestions.
Before three days, we had a small tea party at our office on occasion of farewell to a senior staff member who was transferred. In the party, my director, executives, union members and almost all staff were present. During the party I started a friendly conversation with the Union leader who was surrounded by his supporters. During the conversation I raised the issue very lightly. Some other colleagues like our System Analyst, Security Manager etc supported me as they are also fed-up with the lady.
I just wanted to convince the union that, whatever she is doing is wrong. I did not raise any question on suspension/memo/dismissal/action etc. As it was a big gathering, others also joined us and the Union Secretary agreed that it is wrong, whatever she did so far and assured us improvement.
After the same, I can mark some positive results. She is coming and going in time. As I can not comment on the quality of the work as very good, still it is better than before. I hope the same to be continued. I hope, it will go smoothly upto August (Union elections scheduled).
I expect my respected seniors' guidance on the matter and welcome comments.
Truly...
A Dash
From India, Hyderabad
It is good to find that our problem is getting solved.
Praise her for the improvement in work. It will create the "Hawthorne Effect" once she finds that her work is getting noticed. Recognition is a great motivator.
Play down the Union involvement, and do not make it as if the improvement is due to the fear or pressure b the Union. Everyone has one's own self-respect; and one would rather be appreciated for one's own effort rather than it being due to the pressure of someone else.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
Praise her for the improvement in work. It will create the "Hawthorne Effect" once she finds that her work is getting noticed. Recognition is a great motivator.
Play down the Union involvement, and do not make it as if the improvement is due to the fear or pressure b the Union. Everyone has one's own self-respect; and one would rather be appreciated for one's own effort rather than it being due to the pressure of someone else.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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