Dear INFY Employee,
By the way, the narrated details by you raise doubts on your own way of dealings/behavior!
The Company has its own process of redressal of grievances - I suppose!
Instead of using the internal system, you have put the matter to public - and I do not find any merit in defense for any action on you for not fulfilling your basic obligations as an employee.
At the outset, I feel you have not given justice to your own PM - who allowed you in faith to take leave on the supposed medical grounds!
Even then the PM cannot continue allowing you to take leave for over a month again - without any medical documents in support of your genuine (?) sickness.
However, time is also not lost so far - TELL THE TRUTH, CHRONOLOGICAL & LOGICAL EVENTS why the Medical supportive documents were not produced, and be frank and fair to your management - which has hired you for exchange of your desired, expected, and agreed services.
Once you do that, expect a fair deal from Mgt.!
You cannot be UNFAIR to the Management and at the same time expect FAIR deals from any Management!
Regards,
Ravi Waghmare
From India, Mumbai
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4By the way, the narrated details by you raise doubts on your own way of dealings/behavior!
The Company has its own process of redressal of grievances - I suppose!
Instead of using the internal system, you have put the matter to public - and I do not find any merit in defense for any action on you for not fulfilling your basic obligations as an employee.
At the outset, I feel you have not given justice to your own PM - who allowed you in faith to take leave on the supposed medical grounds!
Even then the PM cannot continue allowing you to take leave for over a month again - without any medical documents in support of your genuine (?) sickness.
However, time is also not lost so far - TELL THE TRUTH, CHRONOLOGICAL & LOGICAL EVENTS why the Medical supportive documents were not produced, and be frank and fair to your management - which has hired you for exchange of your desired, expected, and agreed services.
Once you do that, expect a fair deal from Mgt.!
You cannot be UNFAIR to the Management and at the same time expect FAIR deals from any Management!
Regards,
Ravi Waghmare
From India, Mumbai
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The employer cannot take disciplinary action against you for having fallen sick, provided that you have informed him as early as possible and have produced a medical certificate from a qualified doctor. The doctor must be deemed qualified according to the service rules of your company to certify your sickness. If any action is taken against you despite meeting these conditions, it will not stand the scrutiny of a legal forum. There are numerous case laws supporting my contention. So, be cheerful.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Dear Sanusoman,
At times, it is good to exhibit a contrarian opinion. However, I suggest you read the submission in depth. The poster has faked his illness on two earlier occasions. Now, he is trying to fabricate a case out of two-month-old medical records and integrate it with a certificate from a GP. Please note that whether in a Departmental Enquiry or Labour/Civil court, an adept Prosecution Nominee/Lawyer can easily challenge such flimsy documentary evidence through determined, persistent cross-examination and by presenting their own witnesses, including Medical Experts and Specialists.
It is worth noting that while a lenient view is often taken to avoid equating employees with criminals, this should not be seen as a license for such misdeeds and misconduct.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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At times, it is good to exhibit a contrarian opinion. However, I suggest you read the submission in depth. The poster has faked his illness on two earlier occasions. Now, he is trying to fabricate a case out of two-month-old medical records and integrate it with a certificate from a GP. Please note that whether in a Departmental Enquiry or Labour/Civil court, an adept Prosecution Nominee/Lawyer can easily challenge such flimsy documentary evidence through determined, persistent cross-examination and by presenting their own witnesses, including Medical Experts and Specialists.
It is worth noting that while a lenient view is often taken to avoid equating employees with criminals, this should not be seen as a license for such misdeeds and misconduct.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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I corroborate the views of Raj Kumar Hansdah, as disciplinary proceedings should never be taken lightly or as an empty formality.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
From India, Delhi
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PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
From India, Delhi
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The fact of the matter is: "The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice, and on both occasions, he has faked it; the third time it was genuine. The disciplinary authority has not given him even a memo on both occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts; not even required him to produce a medical certificate."
In this background, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. And in the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist upon examining the doctor(s); even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will corroborate the genuineness of the certificate.
As such, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence which the employer can cross-examine. And no management-side representative can rip through the document and establish that the documents were fake; more so because the documents were genuine; and mind you, the employee's side representative will not be an idiot.
Further, even for the earlier instances of fake illness, he can produce certificates if need be; so from a legal point of view, the employer has no ground to take action against the employee. And medical leaves taken supported by certificates are not sufficient grounds for disciplinary action. HR Managers should advise the employers accordingly.
Recently I have seen a guy known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave for more than six months. He was faking disc prolapse; the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home; he was not there at that time. His contention in court was that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment; it was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; yet the guy won his case.
In the case under reference, legally he is safe; let us not frighten him; and HR managers should not jump to the conclusion that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee concerned has any legal counsel required in this connection, I will help him; let him contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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In this background, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. And in the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist upon examining the doctor(s); even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will corroborate the genuineness of the certificate.
As such, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence which the employer can cross-examine. And no management-side representative can rip through the document and establish that the documents were fake; more so because the documents were genuine; and mind you, the employee's side representative will not be an idiot.
Further, even for the earlier instances of fake illness, he can produce certificates if need be; so from a legal point of view, the employer has no ground to take action against the employee. And medical leaves taken supported by certificates are not sufficient grounds for disciplinary action. HR Managers should advise the employers accordingly.
Recently I have seen a guy known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave for more than six months. He was faking disc prolapse; the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home; he was not there at that time. His contention in court was that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment; it was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; yet the guy won his case.
In the case under reference, legally he is safe; let us not frighten him; and HR managers should not jump to the conclusion that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee concerned has any legal counsel required in this connection, I will help him; let him contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Dear Sanu,
You should not forget that doctors are also bound by a code of conduct in their practice. Any predated fake medical certificate can land them in trouble, even resulting in the cancellation of their certificate of practice. Even if at a later date they issue a medical certificate for a past illness, they have to prove, with reference to the records they maintain, that the treatment was administered by them.
Regarding the winning of a case by an employee who was absent without authorization, claiming to be undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, it should not be assumed that every employee can win a case on such grounds. Undergoing Ayurvedic treatment does not exempt an employee from applying for leave or informing management about their illness within a reasonable time.
In the mentioned case, it appears that the management's advocate did not represent the case effectively. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the employee's unauthorized absence not to be proven effectively.
I don't believe community members should engage in teaching fraudulent practices. There are hundreds of legitimate ways to solve problems rather than resorting to malpractices. Malpractices, in such situations, can irreparably damage a case. I have a track record of more than 30 years in successfully defending my clients (both employees and management) in disciplinary proceedings based solely on genuine grounds, not through malpractices.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
The fact of the matter is:
"The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice, and on both occasions, he faked it; the third time it was genuine.
The disciplinary authority has not issued even a memo on both occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts, nor required him to produce a medical certificate."
In this context, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. During the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist on examining the doctor(s). Even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will confirm the authenticity of the certificate.
Therefore, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence that the employer can cross-examine. No representative from the management side can invalidate the document and prove it was fake, especially as the documents were genuine. Additionally, the employee's representative will be knowledgeable.
Furthermore, even for the previous instances of feigned illness, he can produce certificates if necessary. From a legal perspective, the employer has no grounds to take action against the employee solely based on medical leaves supported by certificates. HR Managers should advise employers accordingly.
Recently, I witnessed an individual known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave exceeding six months. He feigned disc prolapse; when the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home, he was not present. In court, he argued that he was undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, which was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; still, he won his case.
In the current case, legally, he is protected; let us not intimidate him. HR managers should refrain from assuming that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee requires legal counsel in this matter, I am willing to assist; they can contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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You should not forget that doctors are also bound by a code of conduct in their practice. Any predated fake medical certificate can land them in trouble, even resulting in the cancellation of their certificate of practice. Even if at a later date they issue a medical certificate for a past illness, they have to prove, with reference to the records they maintain, that the treatment was administered by them.
Regarding the winning of a case by an employee who was absent without authorization, claiming to be undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, it should not be assumed that every employee can win a case on such grounds. Undergoing Ayurvedic treatment does not exempt an employee from applying for leave or informing management about their illness within a reasonable time.
In the mentioned case, it appears that the management's advocate did not represent the case effectively. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the employee's unauthorized absence not to be proven effectively.
I don't believe community members should engage in teaching fraudulent practices. There are hundreds of legitimate ways to solve problems rather than resorting to malpractices. Malpractices, in such situations, can irreparably damage a case. I have a track record of more than 30 years in successfully defending my clients (both employees and management) in disciplinary proceedings based solely on genuine grounds, not through malpractices.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
The fact of the matter is:
"The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice, and on both occasions, he faked it; the third time it was genuine.
The disciplinary authority has not issued even a memo on both occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts, nor required him to produce a medical certificate."
In this context, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. During the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist on examining the doctor(s). Even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will confirm the authenticity of the certificate.
Therefore, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence that the employer can cross-examine. No representative from the management side can invalidate the document and prove it was fake, especially as the documents were genuine. Additionally, the employee's representative will be knowledgeable.
Furthermore, even for the previous instances of feigned illness, he can produce certificates if necessary. From a legal perspective, the employer has no grounds to take action against the employee solely based on medical leaves supported by certificates. HR Managers should advise employers accordingly.
Recently, I witnessed an individual known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave exceeding six months. He feigned disc prolapse; when the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home, he was not present. In court, he argued that he was undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, which was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; still, he won his case.
In the current case, legally, he is protected; let us not intimidate him. HR managers should refrain from assuming that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee requires legal counsel in this matter, I am willing to assist; they can contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient grounds to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available; not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer. The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct, and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. The punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct. It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority. Considering the facts and circumstances of the case, the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case, in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labor cases.
All talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black.
My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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All talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black.
My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Dear Friend,
I am an employee of Infosys. I have taken unplanned leaves due to medical reasons, thrice so far (for about a month each time). However, my Project Manager (PM) knows that I'm faking it.
The very fact that you are openly admitting that you were faking illness is sufficient grounds to make you liable for disciplinary action. Also, the fact that your PM knows that you are faking lends greater weight to management's decision to take disciplinary measures against you (if they so decide).
The last two times, my PM did not ask me for any medical certificates. This time around, he wants me to produce my history of illness and medical reports. I have some scan and sonography reports (I had genuinely fallen ill 2 months before I went on leave) with me. I am planning to submit the same and a letter from my General Physician.
It was in good faith that your PM did not ask you to submit a Medical certificate in support of your illness earlier. But now, he must have seen through your ploy and is insisting that you produce a Medical Certificate for your period of absence from work.
You have yourself stated that you have some scan and sonography reports from when you genuinely fell ill two months before you went on leave and that you are planning to submit the same along with a letter from your General Physician.
Your falsehood is well established prima facie by your own admission, and you are liable for disciplinary action by the management.
Is there any ground on which disciplinary proceedings can be initiated despite producing a certificate from my family doctor?
Yes, there are more than sufficient grounds for the initiation of disciplinary proceedings against you.
Thanks and regards.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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I am an employee of Infosys. I have taken unplanned leaves due to medical reasons, thrice so far (for about a month each time). However, my Project Manager (PM) knows that I'm faking it.
The very fact that you are openly admitting that you were faking illness is sufficient grounds to make you liable for disciplinary action. Also, the fact that your PM knows that you are faking lends greater weight to management's decision to take disciplinary measures against you (if they so decide).
The last two times, my PM did not ask me for any medical certificates. This time around, he wants me to produce my history of illness and medical reports. I have some scan and sonography reports (I had genuinely fallen ill 2 months before I went on leave) with me. I am planning to submit the same and a letter from my General Physician.
It was in good faith that your PM did not ask you to submit a Medical certificate in support of your illness earlier. But now, he must have seen through your ploy and is insisting that you produce a Medical Certificate for your period of absence from work.
You have yourself stated that you have some scan and sonography reports from when you genuinely fell ill two months before you went on leave and that you are planning to submit the same along with a letter from your General Physician.
Your falsehood is well established prima facie by your own admission, and you are liable for disciplinary action by the management.
Is there any ground on which disciplinary proceedings can be initiated despite producing a certificate from my family doctor?
Yes, there are more than sufficient grounds for the initiation of disciplinary proceedings against you.
Thanks and regards.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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A management can issue a charge sheet to an employee alleging that he sneezed forcefully in the office resulting in some papers flying off the table, causing some other employees to run after such papers, which ultimately resulted in a stampede, and ultimately terminate him from service. There is a prima facie case against him! And no force on earth can prevent the management from acting in such a ham-handed manner. But the question is whether such action will be found reasonable, legal, and justified by the appropriate legal forum. Though there was a stampede, the HR manager should advise against issuing a charge sheet because sneezing is an innocuous bodily action; not a willful malfeasance warranting punishment.
In the instant case, I reiterate, the management has not sufficient ground to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu Soman,
HR Manager
From India, Madras
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In the instant case, I reiterate, the management has not sufficient ground to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu Soman,
HR Manager
From India, Madras
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Dear Sanu,
Here in this case, probably only you are putting the cart (legal action) well before the horse (departmental disciplinary action that is still at the proposal stage).
It seems you have not properly read the main post by the employee. Better, please reread the very first post of the member who has asked for the opinion on whether the management can take any disciplinary action or not.
You have just jumped on legal action even when the case is at the proposal stage, which is not the question right now. Probably misinterpretations by people like you are the real cause of more litigation cases. You have admitted that disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. But when it has not been started yet, where is the question of any punishment or legal case?
"The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient grounds to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available; not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer. The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct, and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company; and the punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct. It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority. Considering the facts and circumstances of the case, the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case, in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labor cases. And all talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black. My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all." - Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Here in this case, probably only you are putting the cart (legal action) well before the horse (departmental disciplinary action that is still at the proposal stage).
It seems you have not properly read the main post by the employee. Better, please reread the very first post of the member who has asked for the opinion on whether the management can take any disciplinary action or not.
You have just jumped on legal action even when the case is at the proposal stage, which is not the question right now. Probably misinterpretations by people like you are the real cause of more litigation cases. You have admitted that disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. But when it has not been started yet, where is the question of any punishment or legal case?
"The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient grounds to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available; not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer. The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct, and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company; and the punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct. It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority. Considering the facts and circumstances of the case, the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case, in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labor cases. And all talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black. My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all." - Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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