ALAN, Your writing is so true. I agree 100%. Apart from few exceptions, vast majority are exactly as per your descriptions. regards LEO LINGHAM
From India, Mumbai
260From India, Mumbai
Two years is not a long time, it is less than 5% of our working career.
New hires, especially recent college graduates, should be too busy learning their jobs to learn much about their employer and coworkers and especially the management team.
I know that the average IQ for engineers is high but that doesn't mean they understand why people do what they do. Until we learn about ourselves and others we are not in a position to make useful improvements.
My advice to new college graduates is to learn their profession, become a specialist and then after years of experience consider becoming a managers, then earn an MBA. Under no circumstances should a recent college graduate think he knows enough about anything related to the business of engineer. Effective managing is much harder to do than competent engineering.
The MBA degree doesn't make person a good manager. I'm both an engineer and an MBA.
From United States, Chelsea
New hires, especially recent college graduates, should be too busy learning their jobs to learn much about their employer and coworkers and especially the management team.
I know that the average IQ for engineers is high but that doesn't mean they understand why people do what they do. Until we learn about ourselves and others we are not in a position to make useful improvements.
My advice to new college graduates is to learn their profession, become a specialist and then after years of experience consider becoming a managers, then earn an MBA. Under no circumstances should a recent college graduate think he knows enough about anything related to the business of engineer. Effective managing is much harder to do than competent engineering.
The MBA degree doesn't make person a good manager. I'm both an engineer and an MBA.
From United States, Chelsea
hi robert,
nice to see your reply and your view. the what ever you told i think i have different view in this. that is if a person joins the company as engineer then he learns how well to od his engineering job. he has theory and there he learns the practical job about engineering and not management. then as he is there in the company for some days he learns how compoany works and how well he has to move in the company. so when a person who is MBA will be with theory knowledge. when he joins the company as summer trianinig or management trainee he learns the situation about management. so it is like telling a perosn to cook a dish 2 when he know the about the dish1.. so i think i have conveyed my point of view in this. eagerly waiting for your more views also. since i am also engineer doing my mba now so thought i didnot convey properly so came back with mesage
From India, Vadodara
nice to see your reply and your view. the what ever you told i think i have different view in this. that is if a person joins the company as engineer then he learns how well to od his engineering job. he has theory and there he learns the practical job about engineering and not management. then as he is there in the company for some days he learns how compoany works and how well he has to move in the company. so when a person who is MBA will be with theory knowledge. when he joins the company as summer trianinig or management trainee he learns the situation about management. so it is like telling a perosn to cook a dish 2 when he know the about the dish1.. so i think i have conveyed my point of view in this. eagerly waiting for your more views also. since i am also engineer doing my mba now so thought i didnot convey properly so came back with mesage
From India, Vadodara
New employees, especially engineers, should not expect others to listen to them about things which they know not. There is no subsititute for experience or education. We need both before we should expect others to take us seriously.
From United States, Chelsea
From United States, Chelsea
hi,
its sounds good that organization should hire right people and not just management guy from top notch organization.
Problem areas here...
1) these MBA's does excellent job in their interviews and trained excellent to answer tricy questions.
2) most of them are good in managerial skills but lack heavily in people skills that doesnt mean they are less acquainted with office politics, what is expected to be good human skills.
3) Does psycometric test really help in knowing their true personalities because they have learnt already how to answer personality questionaire in there studies, what i strongly believe to train internal high flyers on managerial skills whom you also see posses good quality of human skills which deffinately help the organisation in not only job enrichment of people on merrit but also save the cost of the company in the large manner.
Thank You
Indrayani...
From United Arab Emirates, Al Ain
its sounds good that organization should hire right people and not just management guy from top notch organization.
Problem areas here...
1) these MBA's does excellent job in their interviews and trained excellent to answer tricy questions.
2) most of them are good in managerial skills but lack heavily in people skills that doesnt mean they are less acquainted with office politics, what is expected to be good human skills.
3) Does psycometric test really help in knowing their true personalities because they have learnt already how to answer personality questionaire in there studies, what i strongly believe to train internal high flyers on managerial skills whom you also see posses good quality of human skills which deffinately help the organisation in not only job enrichment of people on merrit but also save the cost of the company in the large manner.
Thank You
Indrayani...
From United Arab Emirates, Al Ain
Hello Indrayani:
>its sounds good that organization should
hire right people and not just management
guy from top notch organization. <
Employers that recruit only from the top notch schools ensure that they don't hire the best employees available.
>1) these MBA's does excellent job in their interviews
and trained excellent to answer tricky questions. <
Answering tricky questions well doesn't indicate future job success but it may indicate the interviewee read the right book.
>2) most of them are good in managerial skills but lack heavily in people skills that doesn't mean they are less acquainted with office politics, what is expected to be good human skills.<
We call it having a fit for the job, some call it talent, and fit or talent is unrelated to knowledge, education and experience. This explains why hiring graduates from only the best schools doesn't always get us the best employees.
>3) Does psychometric test really help in knowing their true personalities<
Yes, but we assess for job related behaviors, thinking styles and occupational interests.
>because they have learnt already how to
answer personality questionnaire in there studies<
We find that applicants don't know how to answer job fit assessments so that they insure a job offer. Be aware that all assessments are not created equal.
>what i strongly believe to train internal high flyers on managerial skills whom you also see posses good quality of human skills which definitely help the organisation in not only job enrichment of people on merrit but also save the cost of the company in the large manner.<
I agree, but we need to be careful that we don't select the wrong people. Competent talkative employees often get selected before the less talkative competent employees yet the less talkative competent employees make the best managers. Managers need to listen more than they talk. If a manager is talking he isn't learning.
From United States, Chelsea
>its sounds good that organization should
hire right people and not just management
guy from top notch organization. <
Employers that recruit only from the top notch schools ensure that they don't hire the best employees available.
>1) these MBA's does excellent job in their interviews
and trained excellent to answer tricky questions. <
Answering tricky questions well doesn't indicate future job success but it may indicate the interviewee read the right book.
>2) most of them are good in managerial skills but lack heavily in people skills that doesn't mean they are less acquainted with office politics, what is expected to be good human skills.<
We call it having a fit for the job, some call it talent, and fit or talent is unrelated to knowledge, education and experience. This explains why hiring graduates from only the best schools doesn't always get us the best employees.
>3) Does psychometric test really help in knowing their true personalities<
Yes, but we assess for job related behaviors, thinking styles and occupational interests.
>because they have learnt already how to
answer personality questionnaire in there studies<
We find that applicants don't know how to answer job fit assessments so that they insure a job offer. Be aware that all assessments are not created equal.
>what i strongly believe to train internal high flyers on managerial skills whom you also see posses good quality of human skills which definitely help the organisation in not only job enrichment of people on merrit but also save the cost of the company in the large manner.<
I agree, but we need to be careful that we don't select the wrong people. Competent talkative employees often get selected before the less talkative competent employees yet the less talkative competent employees make the best managers. Managers need to listen more than they talk. If a manager is talking he isn't learning.
From United States, Chelsea
hi Robert,
well said ...i agree to u 100%.
1)what do u think at which level we shd. hv. this Job Fit Assessment in selection process? would u like to share any such test with us or rights reserved
2) why do u think these MBA fail to deliver the expectation?
3) I don't mean high flyers means talkative people but those selected thru. Assessment Centres itself.
Indrayani
From United Arab Emirates, Al Ain
well said ...i agree to u 100%.
1)what do u think at which level we shd. hv. this Job Fit Assessment in selection process? would u like to share any such test with us or rights reserved
2) why do u think these MBA fail to deliver the expectation?
3) I don't mean high flyers means talkative people but those selected thru. Assessment Centres itself.
Indrayani
From United Arab Emirates, Al Ain
Hello Indrayani:
>well said ...i agree to u 100%. <
Thank you and great minds...
>1) what do u think at which level we shd. hv.
this Job Fit Assessment in selection process?<
Before the job offer is made.
>would u like to share any such test with us or rights reserved <
The questions are important but not as important as how the answers are evaluated.
Read "10 Steps to increase employee retention and productivity" at http://tinyurl.com/9t6jh
>2) why do u think these MBA fail to deliver the expectation? <
Knowledge isn't enough, we must also have the talent demanded by the job. Most employers don't know that their jobs require specific talent so they hire for competence. Employees need to be competent but they do not need to be the most qualified.
>3) I don't mean high flyers means talkative people but
those selected thru. Assessment Centres itself.<
Just be sure the assessment center evalautes for talent not just knowledge, competence and skills.
From United States, Chelsea
>well said ...i agree to u 100%. <
Thank you and great minds...
>1) what do u think at which level we shd. hv.
this Job Fit Assessment in selection process?<
Before the job offer is made.
>would u like to share any such test with us or rights reserved <
The questions are important but not as important as how the answers are evaluated.
Read "10 Steps to increase employee retention and productivity" at http://tinyurl.com/9t6jh
>2) why do u think these MBA fail to deliver the expectation? <
Knowledge isn't enough, we must also have the talent demanded by the job. Most employers don't know that their jobs require specific talent so they hire for competence. Employees need to be competent but they do not need to be the most qualified.
>3) I don't mean high flyers means talkative people but
those selected thru. Assessment Centres itself.<
Just be sure the assessment center evalautes for talent not just knowledge, competence and skills.
From United States, Chelsea
Indrayani, you seem to be on the right track in your thinking, and I'd just like to add a point or two, if I may.
If a Job Fit Assessment is to be of the most use, why not conduct the Assessment on a regular basis post-employment, as opposed to pre-employment? Ideas, thoughts, beliefs, likes and dislikes change as we settle into positions...and even the best "hire" can demonstrate that the "initial fit" may not be an "ongoing fit" between the position and the candidate.
The Job Fit Assessment "type" of vehicle can assist in employee assessment of his/her skills in "role" fulfillment of the position held--and not be used as a "screening" tool to determine "job" fulfillment. Role fulfillment and job fulfillment are two separate and distinct attributes.
Often, in my consults, I watch hiring managers reach personnel decisions based on a set of test results--as opposed to the holistic aspect of the interview process. No "test" should be the sole determining factor in a new hire. No "test" should be the sole determining factor in continued employment.
As to your question directed to Mr. Gately about why do MBA Graduates fail to deliver to expectation, let me comment in short order. The belief that any new graduate--either BS, MBA, or PhD--can simply breeze into a position and perform to expectation is, generally speaking, a fallacy.
When you started school, did someone teach you how to study? When you started your first job, did someone train you as to expectations? When you started in the position you currently hold, did someone conduct a transition meeting, or an orientation, to set expectations?
Often, we will see new MBAs hired and immediately expected to perform to some esoteric set of standards that has not been identified, much less defined.
So often, we find that the hiring manager doesn't understand the role requirements for a position, but is still expected to hire to fill the position. To quote a good friend of mine, how 'lame' is that?
There is no single test that will determine success or failure of a new hire in a position. In real life, we use every tool we have at our disposal to make the best determination possible, and hire the best candidate--in our opinion--to fill a position.
Hope that offers a bit of insight.
Alan Guinn, Managing Director
The Guinn Consultancy Group, Inc.
From United States, Bluff City
If a Job Fit Assessment is to be of the most use, why not conduct the Assessment on a regular basis post-employment, as opposed to pre-employment? Ideas, thoughts, beliefs, likes and dislikes change as we settle into positions...and even the best "hire" can demonstrate that the "initial fit" may not be an "ongoing fit" between the position and the candidate.
The Job Fit Assessment "type" of vehicle can assist in employee assessment of his/her skills in "role" fulfillment of the position held--and not be used as a "screening" tool to determine "job" fulfillment. Role fulfillment and job fulfillment are two separate and distinct attributes.
Often, in my consults, I watch hiring managers reach personnel decisions based on a set of test results--as opposed to the holistic aspect of the interview process. No "test" should be the sole determining factor in a new hire. No "test" should be the sole determining factor in continued employment.
As to your question directed to Mr. Gately about why do MBA Graduates fail to deliver to expectation, let me comment in short order. The belief that any new graduate--either BS, MBA, or PhD--can simply breeze into a position and perform to expectation is, generally speaking, a fallacy.
When you started school, did someone teach you how to study? When you started your first job, did someone train you as to expectations? When you started in the position you currently hold, did someone conduct a transition meeting, or an orientation, to set expectations?
Often, we will see new MBAs hired and immediately expected to perform to some esoteric set of standards that has not been identified, much less defined.
So often, we find that the hiring manager doesn't understand the role requirements for a position, but is still expected to hire to fill the position. To quote a good friend of mine, how 'lame' is that?
There is no single test that will determine success or failure of a new hire in a position. In real life, we use every tool we have at our disposal to make the best determination possible, and hire the best candidate--in our opinion--to fill a position.
Hope that offers a bit of insight.
Alan Guinn, Managing Director
The Guinn Consultancy Group, Inc.
From United States, Bluff City
Hello Alan:
>There is no single test that will determine
success or failure of a new hire in a position.<
But an effective test can identify which qualified to be hired job applicants have the best chance for job success which is the reason we have selection processes.
>In real life, we use every tool we have at our disposal to make the best determination possible<
Unfortunately most hiring managers have a limited set of tools, quite often their tool box doesn't include a job fit assessment so they hire for competence.
>and hire the best candidate--in our opinion--to fill a position.<
We suggest hiring the best employees since.the best candidates are the right people to hire only about 20% of the time.
From United States, Chelsea
>There is no single test that will determine
success or failure of a new hire in a position.<
But an effective test can identify which qualified to be hired job applicants have the best chance for job success which is the reason we have selection processes.
>In real life, we use every tool we have at our disposal to make the best determination possible<
Unfortunately most hiring managers have a limited set of tools, quite often their tool box doesn't include a job fit assessment so they hire for competence.
>and hire the best candidate--in our opinion--to fill a position.<
We suggest hiring the best employees since.the best candidates are the right people to hire only about 20% of the time.
From United States, Chelsea
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