Dear Seniors,
Today, I want your valuable suggestions on certain issues, such as coming late to the office. Currently, we have a manual punching system, and whoever is late more than 4 days in a month has half a day of CL deducted. However, with the rainy season approaching in Maharashtra, and most of the staff commuting through locals and buses, they argue that this rule may not be practical during those days as trains may be delayed or canceled, leading to significant traffic jams.
I am interested to know what rules other organizations are following. Companies like Godrej, HCC, etc., have electronic punching systems where being late means being late, regardless of external conditions. Please guide me on this matter as it is becoming an issue in my workplace.
Thanks,
Yogita
From India, Mumbai
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4Today, I want your valuable suggestions on certain issues, such as coming late to the office. Currently, we have a manual punching system, and whoever is late more than 4 days in a month has half a day of CL deducted. However, with the rainy season approaching in Maharashtra, and most of the staff commuting through locals and buses, they argue that this rule may not be practical during those days as trains may be delayed or canceled, leading to significant traffic jams.
I am interested to know what rules other organizations are following. Companies like Godrej, HCC, etc., have electronic punching systems where being late means being late, regardless of external conditions. Please guide me on this matter as it is becoming an issue in my workplace.
Thanks,
Yogita
From India, Mumbai
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Dear Yogita Parihaar,
No matter whether it is shining or raining, these rules are meant for strict adherence. Any bending or reluctance in implementation will open a Pandora's box for indiscipline, which slowly but definitely makes inroads into other systems in man management.
Summer, winter, or rainy seasons are part of our lives. They carry out their duties without fail, just as human beings have their responsibilities. Whether we like it or not, we experience these weather changes from time immemorial.
There are very few who face genuine difficulties sometimes, certainly not many in numbers. It is often simply an excuse to justify their actions. With better time planning and preparation, all of us, regardless of distance, mode of travel, age, or gender, can adhere to the timing in an organization.
Can they offer excuses in their personal lives? Certainly, what is convenient or comfortable for some may not be so for others. If allowed, there would be no rules or regulations.
To address these issues, I suggest the only way forward is to allow no leniency whatsoever, regardless of the pressure. However, you need to be guided by the policy of your company in such matters. If there is no policy, introduce and implement strict adherence without bias. It is the management who takes a long shot on any matters pertaining to human issues, including this. Do not give in. Once you display reluctance, it reflects on your own efficiency. If you are strict, not everyone will appreciate it, but if you are not, many won't appreciate it.
All the best.
V. Rangarajan.
From India, Pune
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No matter whether it is shining or raining, these rules are meant for strict adherence. Any bending or reluctance in implementation will open a Pandora's box for indiscipline, which slowly but definitely makes inroads into other systems in man management.
Summer, winter, or rainy seasons are part of our lives. They carry out their duties without fail, just as human beings have their responsibilities. Whether we like it or not, we experience these weather changes from time immemorial.
There are very few who face genuine difficulties sometimes, certainly not many in numbers. It is often simply an excuse to justify their actions. With better time planning and preparation, all of us, regardless of distance, mode of travel, age, or gender, can adhere to the timing in an organization.
Can they offer excuses in their personal lives? Certainly, what is convenient or comfortable for some may not be so for others. If allowed, there would be no rules or regulations.
To address these issues, I suggest the only way forward is to allow no leniency whatsoever, regardless of the pressure. However, you need to be guided by the policy of your company in such matters. If there is no policy, introduce and implement strict adherence without bias. It is the management who takes a long shot on any matters pertaining to human issues, including this. Do not give in. Once you display reluctance, it reflects on your own efficiency. If you are strict, not everyone will appreciate it, but if you are not, many won't appreciate it.
All the best.
V. Rangarajan.
From India, Pune
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Yogitta,
I don't live in Mumbai, but I understand the plight of a common employee who is traveling from far away to feed himself and his family. You might be arriving at the office in your AC car, but not everyone has the same privileges. I have also heard that Mumbai rains are the worst, so employees are bound to be late. Perhaps a person who lives in Mumbai and travels on local trains will be able to better understand the situation.
Yogitta, come out of your AC car and travel on the road, then you will see the mud, the slush, the rush.
I hope this makes some sense, some common sense to be followed.
From India, Pune
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I don't live in Mumbai, but I understand the plight of a common employee who is traveling from far away to feed himself and his family. You might be arriving at the office in your AC car, but not everyone has the same privileges. I have also heard that Mumbai rains are the worst, so employees are bound to be late. Perhaps a person who lives in Mumbai and travels on local trains will be able to better understand the situation.
Yogitta, come out of your AC car and travel on the road, then you will see the mud, the slush, the rush.
I hope this makes some sense, some common sense to be followed.
From India, Pune
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Look, Yogitta, I wonder how, despite living in Mumbai, you are asking such questions, especially being in HR. What is going on here? I don't understand. I really don't understand. I really, really don't understand. I'm really at a loss to understand the motive behind asking such questions. Look at how beautifully Mridu explained the havoc caused by the rains.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Flexibility is the key to good industrial relations. I know the havoc that monsoons can cause in Mumbai, as I saw a family missing their flight. They mentioned that they had to walk for over 20 minutes, as no vehicle would take them on the flooded roads.
In the UK, I had to go for an interview, and due to an accident on the roads, I was delayed by 3 hours (the journey takes 45 minutes on average). Luckily, I had a mobile phone and informed the secretary of the Vice Principal. She had also heard on the radio news about the accident and the closure. I was given a chance later and got the job too.
Both Ravi and Mridu have given you excellent advice. I hope common sense prevails in these matters. Rules are there to be bent, if not broken.
Simhan
A retired academic in the UK.
From United Kingdom
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In the UK, I had to go for an interview, and due to an accident on the roads, I was delayed by 3 hours (the journey takes 45 minutes on average). Luckily, I had a mobile phone and informed the secretary of the Vice Principal. She had also heard on the radio news about the accident and the closure. I was given a chance later and got the job too.
Both Ravi and Mridu have given you excellent advice. I hope common sense prevails in these matters. Rules are there to be bent, if not broken.
Simhan
A retired academic in the UK.
From United Kingdom
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Dear Yogitta,
I support Ravi, Mridu, and Simhan's opinions. HR is not just about making and implementing policies clause by clause; it has to consider the 'humane' aspect as well. It's just a matter of only 2 months of monsoon, and I'm sure it will only improve things for the employees, the company, and for you as well. There is no point in making employees accept and adhere to something that will demotivate them.
Prashant
From India, Delhi
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I support Ravi, Mridu, and Simhan's opinions. HR is not just about making and implementing policies clause by clause; it has to consider the 'humane' aspect as well. It's just a matter of only 2 months of monsoon, and I'm sure it will only improve things for the employees, the company, and for you as well. There is no point in making employees accept and adhere to something that will demotivate them.
Prashant
From India, Delhi
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Hi Yogitha,
I really appreciate that you value our suggestions, and I felt very glad to hear such good suggestions. In my opinion, you must stick to your rules. Let them be informed through an internal memo or circular about not being late to the office. However, those employees who stay at far ends should be excused for a maximum of 15 minutes so that they might be able to cope up with the timings. For the employees staying nearby, they should reach on time.
Best regards,
Md. Shuja
From Oman, Muscat
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I really appreciate that you value our suggestions, and I felt very glad to hear such good suggestions. In my opinion, you must stick to your rules. Let them be informed through an internal memo or circular about not being late to the office. However, those employees who stay at far ends should be excused for a maximum of 15 minutes so that they might be able to cope up with the timings. For the employees staying nearby, they should reach on time.
Best regards,
Md. Shuja
From Oman, Muscat
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Hi All,
I respect all the valuable comments and solutions. I am from Mumbai and work for an IT company in Andheri. I agree commuting is a big task in a city like Mumbai wherein people have to change buses/locals to reach their workplace. But at the same time, company policies cannot be neglected. You can have flexible timings at your workplace. During the calculation of salary and attendance, you need to check whether the employee has completed the minimum working hours.
Dear Yogita, I hope this will help me in solving your concern to some extent. But speak with the management first.
Regards,
Sheetal
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I respect all the valuable comments and solutions. I am from Mumbai and work for an IT company in Andheri. I agree commuting is a big task in a city like Mumbai wherein people have to change buses/locals to reach their workplace. But at the same time, company policies cannot be neglected. You can have flexible timings at your workplace. During the calculation of salary and attendance, you need to check whether the employee has completed the minimum working hours.
Dear Yogita, I hope this will help me in solving your concern to some extent. But speak with the management first.
Regards,
Sheetal
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Dear Yogita,
I agree with Ravi, Mridula, and Simhan. Please give value to a valid excuse if someone is late due to rain; it's a real reason. If you see that it's raining heavily, please provide relaxation to your employees.
We often discuss Employee Welfare, Employee Engagement, and numerous thesis reports and policies. Let's not just ignore them; put them all in the dustbin.
If you do not offer relaxation for a genuine reason, then you cannot call yourself an HR Manager. To everyone reading my post, please do not terminate anyone for being late (especially as companies are always seeking opportunities during a recession) due to rain.
HR managers out there, please make an effort to convince your management.
Regards,
Shine!
From India, Bhopal
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I agree with Ravi, Mridula, and Simhan. Please give value to a valid excuse if someone is late due to rain; it's a real reason. If you see that it's raining heavily, please provide relaxation to your employees.
We often discuss Employee Welfare, Employee Engagement, and numerous thesis reports and policies. Let's not just ignore them; put them all in the dustbin.
If you do not offer relaxation for a genuine reason, then you cannot call yourself an HR Manager. To everyone reading my post, please do not terminate anyone for being late (especially as companies are always seeking opportunities during a recession) due to rain.
HR managers out there, please make an effort to convince your management.
Regards,
Shine!
From India, Bhopal
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Employees must be given some concession for late coming due to natural calamities or heavy rains. As an HR Manager, we must be reasonable and cannot force employees beyond their means to arrive on time.
Bhajiya
From Saudi Arabia
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Bhajiya
From Saudi Arabia
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Dear Yogita,
HR policies are very important, but under some circumstances, you can always reconsider the rules with approval from higher management. Anyways, during the rainy season, sometimes in Mumbai, not a single person reaches the office, including you. In such cases, where do the rules stand? Referring to the last three years' records of Mumbai rains, you can't even force an employee to resume office because the government declares a holiday for that particular day. If any company violates that order, they are liable to pay compensation to the employee. Although this is on paper, no one follows it, but an employee can claim that compensation, which rarely happens.
HR should always prioritize employee welfare, discipline, and benefits rather than putting them at risk.
Rest is up to you.
Cheers !!!!!!!!
Ashwini
From India, Mumbai
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HR policies are very important, but under some circumstances, you can always reconsider the rules with approval from higher management. Anyways, during the rainy season, sometimes in Mumbai, not a single person reaches the office, including you. In such cases, where do the rules stand? Referring to the last three years' records of Mumbai rains, you can't even force an employee to resume office because the government declares a holiday for that particular day. If any company violates that order, they are liable to pay compensation to the employee. Although this is on paper, no one follows it, but an employee can claim that compensation, which rarely happens.
HR should always prioritize employee welfare, discipline, and benefits rather than putting them at risk.
Rest is up to you.
Cheers !!!!!!!!
Ashwini
From India, Mumbai
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Be flexible in your approach, Yogitta. There are many other issues under HR where we, as management, need to be strict in adherence but show "unreasonable" flexibility, and nobody questions it. Your staff will bless you for this effort and initiative this monsoon, more so when there is a prior alert on the issue.
If there is pressure from your boss or management to implement this ad verbatim, please go ahead and ensure that you deduct half-day CL from your CEO, CFO, HR Head's leave balance too if they are late. This will ensure that you have won the battle between your mind and heart!
Best wishes, PD
From India, Delhi
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If there is pressure from your boss or management to implement this ad verbatim, please go ahead and ensure that you deduct half-day CL from your CEO, CFO, HR Head's leave balance too if they are late. This will ensure that you have won the battle between your mind and heart!
Best wishes, PD
From India, Delhi
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Dear All,
All of you give your great suggestions, but it is very difficult for senior people to agree to the same. Humanity, discipline, and punctuality have to be considered equally. In my view, you must allow some relaxation to your employees, but ensure that nobody misuses it. You cannot find out if anyone is trying to cheat you in such a case. Think about it and discuss it with your seniors. You can follow the government rules and regulations or adhere to the Factory Act and your standing orders while making any policy regarding the same.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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All of you give your great suggestions, but it is very difficult for senior people to agree to the same. Humanity, discipline, and punctuality have to be considered equally. In my view, you must allow some relaxation to your employees, but ensure that nobody misuses it. You cannot find out if anyone is trying to cheat you in such a case. Think about it and discuss it with your seniors. You can follow the government rules and regulations or adhere to the Factory Act and your standing orders while making any policy regarding the same.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Yogita,
Whenever a rule is made, it is for everybody, and everybody has to follow it. No matter who he is and whatever the situation is, we have to strictly adhere to these rules. In case there is a situation that is affecting most of the employees, then it can be discussed, and some alternative arrangements can be made. For example, during rainy days, the staff's arrival time can be adjusted. However, there should be specific parameters set, like determining which days should be considered as rainy days.
Thank you.
From India, Calcutta
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Whenever a rule is made, it is for everybody, and everybody has to follow it. No matter who he is and whatever the situation is, we have to strictly adhere to these rules. In case there is a situation that is affecting most of the employees, then it can be discussed, and some alternative arrangements can be made. For example, during rainy days, the staff's arrival time can be adjusted. However, there should be specific parameters set, like determining which days should be considered as rainy days.
Thank you.
From India, Calcutta
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Yesterday, I spoke with my friend who lives in Mumbai. He told me that this time the rains are going to be dangerous, and public announcements will be made requesting people not to venture out of their houses during certain days as per the weather forecast. Additionally, there are notices in railway stations and public places informing the public about the floods and heavy rains.
In this scenario, you want your employees to come to the office on time. However, I would prefer to remain at home rather than risk my life in floods. If an employee were to die, you would forget about them, so why should I risk my life for your company? Employees should receive full pay during any natural calamity.
So, please be aware.
From India, Pune
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In this scenario, you want your employees to come to the office on time. However, I would prefer to remain at home rather than risk my life in floods. If an employee were to die, you would forget about them, so why should I risk my life for your company? Employees should receive full pay during any natural calamity.
So, please be aware.
From India, Pune
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No doubt, we in HR must respect rules and implement them with all rigidity. Attendance management is one such duty. At the same time, employee welfare is another duty that HR must perform with some enthusiasm. The difficulties of employees must be projected to the management, and exception approval should be taken for the days when employees are unable to attend the office on time due to natural calamities or excessive rains disrupting city traffic.
What the company will lose is much less than what you gain in terms of employee motivation and confidence in HR.
Moorthy
From India, Hyderabad
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What the company will lose is much less than what you gain in terms of employee motivation and confidence in HR.
Moorthy
From India, Hyderabad
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Hi, everybody.
I think this should be taken care of by each of us according to the situation. I have been traveling from Kalyan to Mahim for more than 14 years and know how everyone suffers during heavy rains.
Regards,
Ajay V
From India, Pune
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I think this should be taken care of by each of us according to the situation. I have been traveling from Kalyan to Mahim for more than 14 years and know how everyone suffers during heavy rains.
Regards,
Ajay V
From India, Pune
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Yogita,
I sense that this thread has been turned into an HR vs Employee debate, which in my humble opinion is wrong.
Coming back to your question, I want to know, why attendance is such a major concern for you (there are other more important issues like retention, talent management, etc). Is it because there have been issues of indiscipline like late coming always or what else? If that is the case, I think it makes better sense to talk to your employees about the concern of them being late always.
Or is it your senior management feels strongly about discipline and believes that attendance is the most prominent way to show you mean business? You had mentioned about Godrej; let me point out to you that Godrej has a flexitime policy, i.e. you can come to office anytime between 7 am to 10.30 am and then work for 8.5 hours from the time you came in. Do you also have such flexitimes? Please note that for the labor in factories, it is based on shift timings and hence they have to be on time. But, Godrej provides accommodation to its employees which is very near to the compound. Does your company provide that? Or does your company arrange for transportation for employees?
There were a few posts which I believe were extremely stupid, wherein someone said that with better planning you can arrive on time; what if the local trains break down due to water seepage onto tracks (a very common occurrence, any Mumbaikar would tell you that) and trains stop, how do you expect the person to come?
I will quote the example of HCL, which has recently been voted as the Best Company to Work For; in there they allow people to work from home if such a thing happens. I know their nature of business may be different from yours and hence that may not be a viable solution.
HR is Human Relations, and not just the implementation of policies. I think HCL is a wonderful example because of their policy of 'Employee First.' Remember, it is your employee who generates revenues for you and makes it possible for the organization to thrive. An organization that helps its employees in difficult times will see the employees go the extra mile when the organization needs their help.
I think you need to impress upon the management that sometimes there is an issue, especially when you know it is raining heavily wherein trains can be affected, and you can verify this online via Google or online news sites, so I don't think it can be misused as an excuse.
To those who said rules are not to be broken, etc. - I would like to ask you a question: what is the relationship between the company and the employee? If it is of a service provider (employee providing service to the company), then yes, what you say makes sense; there will be a Service Level Agreement (KRAs and KPIs) and they should stick to it, which would mean that the company cannot expect the employee to stay longer than 8.5 hours regardless of whether you pay OT or not because it's not in the employee's SLA. Will that sit well with you? There are two sides to a coin; please see the other point of view too.
To those who made it an HR vs Employees debate - Yogita just asked a question to solve her dilemma, she was here asking for advice and she had not made a decision. We can provide her with alternatives, but then it is up to her to make the decision she feels is right for her organization, so I would request you guys to help her out by giving suggestions and not by attacking her/HR managers as a whole.
From India, Mumbai
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I sense that this thread has been turned into an HR vs Employee debate, which in my humble opinion is wrong.
Coming back to your question, I want to know, why attendance is such a major concern for you (there are other more important issues like retention, talent management, etc). Is it because there have been issues of indiscipline like late coming always or what else? If that is the case, I think it makes better sense to talk to your employees about the concern of them being late always.
Or is it your senior management feels strongly about discipline and believes that attendance is the most prominent way to show you mean business? You had mentioned about Godrej; let me point out to you that Godrej has a flexitime policy, i.e. you can come to office anytime between 7 am to 10.30 am and then work for 8.5 hours from the time you came in. Do you also have such flexitimes? Please note that for the labor in factories, it is based on shift timings and hence they have to be on time. But, Godrej provides accommodation to its employees which is very near to the compound. Does your company provide that? Or does your company arrange for transportation for employees?
There were a few posts which I believe were extremely stupid, wherein someone said that with better planning you can arrive on time; what if the local trains break down due to water seepage onto tracks (a very common occurrence, any Mumbaikar would tell you that) and trains stop, how do you expect the person to come?
I will quote the example of HCL, which has recently been voted as the Best Company to Work For; in there they allow people to work from home if such a thing happens. I know their nature of business may be different from yours and hence that may not be a viable solution.
HR is Human Relations, and not just the implementation of policies. I think HCL is a wonderful example because of their policy of 'Employee First.' Remember, it is your employee who generates revenues for you and makes it possible for the organization to thrive. An organization that helps its employees in difficult times will see the employees go the extra mile when the organization needs their help.
I think you need to impress upon the management that sometimes there is an issue, especially when you know it is raining heavily wherein trains can be affected, and you can verify this online via Google or online news sites, so I don't think it can be misused as an excuse.
To those who said rules are not to be broken, etc. - I would like to ask you a question: what is the relationship between the company and the employee? If it is of a service provider (employee providing service to the company), then yes, what you say makes sense; there will be a Service Level Agreement (KRAs and KPIs) and they should stick to it, which would mean that the company cannot expect the employee to stay longer than 8.5 hours regardless of whether you pay OT or not because it's not in the employee's SLA. Will that sit well with you? There are two sides to a coin; please see the other point of view too.
To those who made it an HR vs Employees debate - Yogita just asked a question to solve her dilemma, she was here asking for advice and she had not made a decision. We can provide her with alternatives, but then it is up to her to make the decision she feels is right for her organization, so I would request you guys to help her out by giving suggestions and not by attacking her/HR managers as a whole.
From India, Mumbai
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Hi,
We have the same issue in our company where office timings are 9:30 am to 6:30 pm, and Saturday and Sunday are holidays. However, employees, especially the technical team, tend to arrive at 10:30 am or 11:00 am and leave at 7:00 pm or even 7:30/8:00 pm. They work on Saturdays and a few Sundays depending on project completion dates.
The issue of employees arriving late to the office has been addressed through regular emails informing them to come to work on time. However, this issue has only been partially resolved as some still arrive at the mentioned timings and leave late.
Thank you.
From India, Bangalore
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We have the same issue in our company where office timings are 9:30 am to 6:30 pm, and Saturday and Sunday are holidays. However, employees, especially the technical team, tend to arrive at 10:30 am or 11:00 am and leave at 7:00 pm or even 7:30/8:00 pm. They work on Saturdays and a few Sundays depending on project completion dates.
The issue of employees arriving late to the office has been addressed through regular emails informing them to come to work on time. However, this issue has only been partially resolved as some still arrive at the mentioned timings and leave late.
Thank you.
From India, Bangalore
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I do not agree with unjust terms of employment that force someone as it reflects a barbaric attitude. When you are handling the HR department, it is a human-related department. Humans are not to be considered as steel, as I believe. The old days of Mr. Rangarajan have passed; now we live with full democracy but with responsibility too.
From India, Anand
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From India, Anand
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Dear All,
Each organization has its own culture, rules, processes, history, and problems, and will have to find its way through the problems. A good manager is one who can provide the best solutions to a problem in a given situation. Views and suggestions given to Ms. Yogita cannot be copied and pasted, and she will have to use prudence and discretion.
However, I have to share the following views and comments:
1. Is it very important, considering the nature of work, that employees have to be 'IN' on time? Is it going to be a major loss for the company? Is time discipline critical? It is critical in certain process industries and manufacturing industries. Imagine a situation where flights are delayed because the crew is often late.
2. Half-days of CL for 4 lates appear to be too harsh, although the definition of late is not known (is it 5 mins, 15 mins, or 30 mins). In the case of how many employees actually have that half CL getting cut? What is the overall percentage? Are the employees not punctual in general?
3. There is a possibility that employees are taking extra care during the monsoon to reach on time and starting a little early. But there will still be a few occasions when local trains and buses are running very late, and they will be late to the office.
4. I suggest some relaxation can be given during particular months of the monsoon. This decision needs to be properly communicated to employees in advance: a) Cut half-days leave, say against 6 lates instead of the usual 4, or b) Ignore the late coming on those 4-5 dreaded days when it rains heavily and transport is disrupted.
Thanks & Regards
From India, Pune
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Each organization has its own culture, rules, processes, history, and problems, and will have to find its way through the problems. A good manager is one who can provide the best solutions to a problem in a given situation. Views and suggestions given to Ms. Yogita cannot be copied and pasted, and she will have to use prudence and discretion.
However, I have to share the following views and comments:
1. Is it very important, considering the nature of work, that employees have to be 'IN' on time? Is it going to be a major loss for the company? Is time discipline critical? It is critical in certain process industries and manufacturing industries. Imagine a situation where flights are delayed because the crew is often late.
2. Half-days of CL for 4 lates appear to be too harsh, although the definition of late is not known (is it 5 mins, 15 mins, or 30 mins). In the case of how many employees actually have that half CL getting cut? What is the overall percentage? Are the employees not punctual in general?
3. There is a possibility that employees are taking extra care during the monsoon to reach on time and starting a little early. But there will still be a few occasions when local trains and buses are running very late, and they will be late to the office.
4. I suggest some relaxation can be given during particular months of the monsoon. This decision needs to be properly communicated to employees in advance: a) Cut half-days leave, say against 6 lates instead of the usual 4, or b) Ignore the late coming on those 4-5 dreaded days when it rains heavily and transport is disrupted.
Thanks & Regards
From India, Pune
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Why so much fuss? The policy already allows for 4 days of coming late (the flexibility is built into the policy itself). There is no need to be any more flexible. Perhaps consider relaxing some dress code rules, such as allowing non-leather shoes as they are more practical during rainy weather.
From India, Mohali
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From India, Mohali
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Useful-Info in Rainy Season.pdf
LATE COMING.doc