Dear HR Managers / Executives,
You'll agree and believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after deliberate thought from Corporate Managers including the HR managers and after due consideration of Manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position on hold after they have received a good number of profiles from consultants. Obviously, they are cheating the consultants of their hard work by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame excuses "which are outside their control."
Position "ON HOLD" - Means "Thank you, you foolish consultants, now we have enough number of CV's which we can play around with and contact on our own after some time!"
This happens repeatedly with a lot of corporate clients. It's a shame on the HR Fraternity.
Then should I believe that the corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is going on in their own companies? If they are changing their requirements repeatedly, are they not competent enough to know what exactly they are looking for?
This is all hogwash. We all know they are creating their own database / pipeline of candidates.
Mr. HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying and stop cheating the consultants. I will equate this to stealing somebody's fruits of labor and hard work.
Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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4You'll agree and believe that the positions / job openings are sent to consultants after deliberate thought from Corporate Managers including the HR managers and after due consideration of Manpower requirements, strategic HR planning, etc.
A routine and common practice by corporate HR is to put the position on hold after they have received a good number of profiles from consultants. Obviously, they are cheating the consultants of their hard work by citing internal restructuring, changes in hierarchy, and numerous other lame excuses "which are outside their control."
Position "ON HOLD" - Means "Thank you, you foolish consultants, now we have enough number of CV's which we can play around with and contact on our own after some time!"
This happens repeatedly with a lot of corporate clients. It's a shame on the HR Fraternity.
Then should I believe that the corporate HR is incompetent in predicting their HR requirements? Are they unaware of what is going on in their own companies? If they are changing their requirements repeatedly, are they not competent enough to know what exactly they are looking for?
This is all hogwash. We all know they are creating their own database / pipeline of candidates.
Mr. HR Manager / Executive - Please stop lying and stop cheating the consultants. I will equate this to stealing somebody's fruits of labor and hard work.
Shame! Shame!
Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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Depends on the situation.
Let me give you a feel of what happens internally.
After the recruiter (corporate) tries really hard, the Hiring Manager says, "Bull Sh*&^". Hire a consultant and give me good profiles.
After consultant sends profiles, hiring manager says:
"Even they are not doing a job better than you!"
Finally, receive an email from Hiring Manager - look, I have a referral, why not hire him? I spoke to the GM about this.
:-) Cool right?
Then, the next case:
Corp recruiter works on a profile, hiring manager says "these are ok, but I need more."
Consultant hired, hiring manager says "Na- I need MORE."
And you know what happens???? At the end - we get an email "we are currently in a position where we do not need this person immediately, so wait till I tell...
Now start hunting for XXX position. Immediate. I need interviews to be scheduled tomorrow. What about the other position I told you in the morning? Where are the profiles?
You have consultants working for you, where are the profiles?"
Dear Sir/Madam,
One thing you need to understand is - the final authority is not the HR. The deciding authority is mostly not interested in talking to consultants.
And also remember, sometimes, the resumes even the corporate HR forwards to the hiring manager are sent to outside companies by the tech head or hiring manager himself. Can't help. This happens everywhere.
Everywhere.
When you ask why HR people have problems with consultants - one of my friends (with an MNC and - I would say, they have all the best systems), one day called me and informed a shocking reality. The technical Head of that company asked for profiles from Job boards from the Corporate HR, and once the profiles were forwarded - he sent the same to some other corporate HR - later on investigation it was found that he represented himself as a consultant with 15 yrs of experience;-)
Trust me - it's not to make a fool out of you. Situations are like that.
I am sorry if my experience is too small to have answered your white hair question! ;-)
Just kidding..relax!
From India, Madras
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Let me give you a feel of what happens internally.
After the recruiter (corporate) tries really hard, the Hiring Manager says, "Bull Sh*&^". Hire a consultant and give me good profiles.
After consultant sends profiles, hiring manager says:
"Even they are not doing a job better than you!"
Finally, receive an email from Hiring Manager - look, I have a referral, why not hire him? I spoke to the GM about this.
:-) Cool right?
Then, the next case:
Corp recruiter works on a profile, hiring manager says "these are ok, but I need more."
Consultant hired, hiring manager says "Na- I need MORE."
And you know what happens???? At the end - we get an email "we are currently in a position where we do not need this person immediately, so wait till I tell...
Now start hunting for XXX position. Immediate. I need interviews to be scheduled tomorrow. What about the other position I told you in the morning? Where are the profiles?
You have consultants working for you, where are the profiles?"
Dear Sir/Madam,
One thing you need to understand is - the final authority is not the HR. The deciding authority is mostly not interested in talking to consultants.
And also remember, sometimes, the resumes even the corporate HR forwards to the hiring manager are sent to outside companies by the tech head or hiring manager himself. Can't help. This happens everywhere.
Everywhere.
When you ask why HR people have problems with consultants - one of my friends (with an MNC and - I would say, they have all the best systems), one day called me and informed a shocking reality. The technical Head of that company asked for profiles from Job boards from the Corporate HR, and once the profiles were forwarded - he sent the same to some other corporate HR - later on investigation it was found that he represented himself as a consultant with 15 yrs of experience;-)
Trust me - it's not to make a fool out of you. Situations are like that.
I am sorry if my experience is too small to have answered your white hair question! ;-)
Just kidding..relax!
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha Thanks for the insight. Who do you think then should be blamed for wasting whole lot of efforts of everybody. The senior Management? Good HR Associates
From India, Chandigarh
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From India, Chandigarh
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Not the Senior Management - Never.
Had I switched over to a consulting profile, I would definitely check the following:
How soon the position is required to be closed?
What has been the interview process as of now (anyone on hold?)?
Is this a new position? (Possibilities of the position going on hold are much higher)
Check the work history of the client with other consultants.
Was I recommended to them?
I will request a con-call with the Hiring Manager (state that as the business work methodology) - will not accept something that the corporation would want to deviate from unless and until it makes sense.
I will not blame anyone for the position going on hold (because I have experienced as an internal recruiter - some reasons cannot be explained to outside people).
As a consultant, I would not just load my client with resumes...maybe a set of 5 on-dot profiles. I will keep constant check with candidates and follow-up with them in their client interactions. If the client says that the position is on hold, my dialogue would be: "Oh, ok, can we expect something in a week's time? No? Alright - my candidates have been constantly asking for updates, so let me do this, as of now there is another client who might need such profiles. I shall send it across to them if YOU say that YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM WITHIN THE NEXT 1 MONTH."
From India, Madras
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Had I switched over to a consulting profile, I would definitely check the following:
How soon the position is required to be closed?
What has been the interview process as of now (anyone on hold?)?
Is this a new position? (Possibilities of the position going on hold are much higher)
Check the work history of the client with other consultants.
Was I recommended to them?
I will request a con-call with the Hiring Manager (state that as the business work methodology) - will not accept something that the corporation would want to deviate from unless and until it makes sense.
I will not blame anyone for the position going on hold (because I have experienced as an internal recruiter - some reasons cannot be explained to outside people).
As a consultant, I would not just load my client with resumes...maybe a set of 5 on-dot profiles. I will keep constant check with candidates and follow-up with them in their client interactions. If the client says that the position is on hold, my dialogue would be: "Oh, ok, can we expect something in a week's time? No? Alright - my candidates have been constantly asking for updates, so let me do this, as of now there is another client who might need such profiles. I shall send it across to them if YOU say that YOU WILL NOT NEED THEM WITHIN THE NEXT 1 MONTH."
From India, Madras
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Dear Asha,
Continuing from your remarks on the earlier thread:
- Yes, it is very obvious. But, in fact, that was the purpose - to highlight about the corporate HR people being bad. :-P
- Well, it's a common courtesy to express thanks for support. :icon1:
- Somehow, I agree with his/her remarks (experience does have its uses) about Amish Bhatt. :-D
Having said that, I am unable to understand how a mature person (age has nothing to do with maturity) like you is unable to see/judge the issue objectively??? :?:
Although I have seen only one side of it (Corp HR), I tend to agree with the aggrieved GHA because I know for sure that corporate guys (that includes Fin & Act as well - I go to them to enable early release of their outstanding bills) resent (to put it mildly) with a capital R; the Consultants (unless it is one of the big MNC outfits or the old reputed ones).
***
But this time, you have hit the nail bang on the head: :icon1:
I particularly liked the last para. Good strategy - and should be adopted by all if they think they are being cheated.
I have two more observations to make:
- I tend to agree that Consultants do not do their homework; don't train their people/associate well; do not 'practice' Key Account Management system; and have not been sensitized to the pressures and the whims of top management that befall the HR people. Just recall the nightmare of the Interview Day - from seating arrangement, keeping tabs on the interview panel, verifying documents, reimbursement of traveling expenses; and the occasional/frequent postponement of Interviews... the list seems to be endless.
- Personally, I haven't come across a case of such "cheating" of denying their dues and CV's sent by Consultants being used. There are two reasons for it:
1. Companies themselves have their login ID & account with various job portals to assess the database of CV's and call up candidates on their own.
2. Consultants keep a tab on such candidates whose CV's they have sent. In fact, I know an extreme case where a candidate has come on his own and got selected. Now this candidate (as stated by him, later) had met the consultant who has forwarded the CV to various other companies (for similar positions); yet the aggressive consultant (who came to know of his appointment from him) raised a dispute claiming that the candidate was sent by him!
Finally, getting down to the brass-tacks; I do empathize with the insecurity felt by the consultants; they don't have a 'copyright' on the CV's nor can they bind the job applicants under any contract; and so, are at the mercy of the sardonically gleeful Corporate HR.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Continuing from your remarks on the earlier thread:
- Yes, it is very obvious. But, in fact, that was the purpose - to highlight about the corporate HR people being bad. :-P
- Well, it's a common courtesy to express thanks for support. :icon1:
- Somehow, I agree with his/her remarks (experience does have its uses) about Amish Bhatt. :-D
Having said that, I am unable to understand how a mature person (age has nothing to do with maturity) like you is unable to see/judge the issue objectively??? :?:
Although I have seen only one side of it (Corp HR), I tend to agree with the aggrieved GHA because I know for sure that corporate guys (that includes Fin & Act as well - I go to them to enable early release of their outstanding bills) resent (to put it mildly) with a capital R; the Consultants (unless it is one of the big MNC outfits or the old reputed ones).
***
But this time, you have hit the nail bang on the head: :icon1:
I particularly liked the last para. Good strategy - and should be adopted by all if they think they are being cheated.
I have two more observations to make:
- I tend to agree that Consultants do not do their homework; don't train their people/associate well; do not 'practice' Key Account Management system; and have not been sensitized to the pressures and the whims of top management that befall the HR people. Just recall the nightmare of the Interview Day - from seating arrangement, keeping tabs on the interview panel, verifying documents, reimbursement of traveling expenses; and the occasional/frequent postponement of Interviews... the list seems to be endless.
- Personally, I haven't come across a case of such "cheating" of denying their dues and CV's sent by Consultants being used. There are two reasons for it:
1. Companies themselves have their login ID & account with various job portals to assess the database of CV's and call up candidates on their own.
2. Consultants keep a tab on such candidates whose CV's they have sent. In fact, I know an extreme case where a candidate has come on his own and got selected. Now this candidate (as stated by him, later) had met the consultant who has forwarded the CV to various other companies (for similar positions); yet the aggressive consultant (who came to know of his appointment from him) raised a dispute claiming that the candidate was sent by him!
Finally, getting down to the brass-tacks; I do empathize with the insecurity felt by the consultants; they don't have a 'copyright' on the CV's nor can they bind the job applicants under any contract; and so, are at the mercy of the sardonically gleeful Corporate HR.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Raj and Asha,
Thanks a ton!
Finally, some concrete and practical suggestions have started to come in!
We pride ourselves on the fact that we have worked out most of the things mentioned by you and Asha. We think about recruitments day in and day out. We are process-driven and have 32 steps laid down right from BD till payment is received. Each step has a detailed procedure with contingencies/exception handling, a detailed script on the way to communicate with all stakeholders (clients, candidates, internal communication, etc.).
We have Key Account Managers for multiple accounts who have a good knowledge about the industry. They are encouraged to know and keep tabs on the client's ins and outs. The accounts, even to the consultants, have been distributed keeping their comfort level, experience, and preferences so that they are enthusiastically involved with the clients.
We work through a customized Applicant Tracking System and have built our own database over the years through referrals. We have strong techniques using the internet to hunt for candidates. We have trained our consultants to search for candidates using various methods without resorting to job portals.
Every Saturday, we have a 2-hour training session which is intensive and exciting as we cover all topics related to recruitments, HRD, processes, soft skills, technical aspects, etc.
I am telling you all this to show that we take our job seriously and know what happens at the other end. We cater to that too. But still, we get cheated, and we know we are being cheated, but can't do anything.
I agree the profiles are available on the portals. But it takes selling (the company and the position) to attract good/passive candidates. Several times we have convinced the candidate to consider the opening (with success) after the client has failed to attract a particular candidate. Recruitment is a selling job. If I have been able to sell a position to the candidate, he is damn well my candidate! - Portal or no portal.
How we sell to the candidate is again a very deliberate and studied process keeping various psychological hooks. We are trying to take recruitments to the next level, and here we get bossed by junior HR executives who don't even know a JD well, can't write one. They search for the CVs sent by us using various keywords (name, company, etc.). It is easy. You send me a CV without contact details and remove the name too. I'll send you back the original CV before you can shut down your PC. They do this all the time and declare the CV duplicate.
Sometimes the candidate has not even heard about the company, and we get to hear from Corporate HR - "we have already spoken to the candidate and he is under consideration"... Wow! I know candidates lie sometimes, but we have ways of checking that out and send only profiles who have not been approached at all. Still, they are "duplicate."
Mr. HR Manager and his team cheat us, repeatedly. After all, they have to justify their existence in their organizations. We help them do that, and they stab us behind our backs.
I consider this as a "character" issue, and since it is so widespread, I can say it is an "Indian Character."
Idhar, sab chalta hai!
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
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Thanks a ton!
Finally, some concrete and practical suggestions have started to come in!
We pride ourselves on the fact that we have worked out most of the things mentioned by you and Asha. We think about recruitments day in and day out. We are process-driven and have 32 steps laid down right from BD till payment is received. Each step has a detailed procedure with contingencies/exception handling, a detailed script on the way to communicate with all stakeholders (clients, candidates, internal communication, etc.).
We have Key Account Managers for multiple accounts who have a good knowledge about the industry. They are encouraged to know and keep tabs on the client's ins and outs. The accounts, even to the consultants, have been distributed keeping their comfort level, experience, and preferences so that they are enthusiastically involved with the clients.
We work through a customized Applicant Tracking System and have built our own database over the years through referrals. We have strong techniques using the internet to hunt for candidates. We have trained our consultants to search for candidates using various methods without resorting to job portals.
Every Saturday, we have a 2-hour training session which is intensive and exciting as we cover all topics related to recruitments, HRD, processes, soft skills, technical aspects, etc.
I am telling you all this to show that we take our job seriously and know what happens at the other end. We cater to that too. But still, we get cheated, and we know we are being cheated, but can't do anything.
I agree the profiles are available on the portals. But it takes selling (the company and the position) to attract good/passive candidates. Several times we have convinced the candidate to consider the opening (with success) after the client has failed to attract a particular candidate. Recruitment is a selling job. If I have been able to sell a position to the candidate, he is damn well my candidate! - Portal or no portal.
How we sell to the candidate is again a very deliberate and studied process keeping various psychological hooks. We are trying to take recruitments to the next level, and here we get bossed by junior HR executives who don't even know a JD well, can't write one. They search for the CVs sent by us using various keywords (name, company, etc.). It is easy. You send me a CV without contact details and remove the name too. I'll send you back the original CV before you can shut down your PC. They do this all the time and declare the CV duplicate.
Sometimes the candidate has not even heard about the company, and we get to hear from Corporate HR - "we have already spoken to the candidate and he is under consideration"... Wow! I know candidates lie sometimes, but we have ways of checking that out and send only profiles who have not been approached at all. Still, they are "duplicate."
Mr. HR Manager and his team cheat us, repeatedly. After all, they have to justify their existence in their organizations. We help them do that, and they stab us behind our backs.
I consider this as a "character" issue, and since it is so widespread, I can say it is an "Indian Character."
Idhar, sab chalta hai!
Good HR Associates.
From India, Chandigarh
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To some extent, I agree with your comments, but it's not fair to blame the HR department entirely for the episode. You should also understand that HR acts as a mediator between senior management and the associates. It's important to remember that HR is not given full authority in most organizations; we are just front-liners. It's one of the most thankless jobs in this industry. :)
- Shailender Reddy
From India, Hyderabad
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- Shailender Reddy
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear GHA,
Please don't portray it as Indian Character. I have had a bad experience with a US client - Merck Pharmaceuticals. I worked so hard for their positions, and being in this business, you will definitely know the amount of documentation and quality we maintain for international clients (ours is ISO certified).
After providing almost 200 candidates for 32 locations across the US, I learned from the VP of Recruitments that the HIRING MANAGER was faking all the positions. No such positions existed, and in the process, one of my candidates was placed, but the Hiring Manager did not inform us. Luckily, I had access to their ATS and found out.
Later, the Hiring Manager was fired due to a few other mishandlings too.
So it was my first experience and lesson on "Never worship the client." Always get to the core of the reality and find out if the company is truly hiring.
My experience with Unisys was wonderful - they have the perfect hiring strategy.
Let me tell you, it's the individual attitude of the employee that can change the way an outsider looks at the company. Please don't put it as the Indian Way (oops, I am sensitive when someone points out my country). Again - I may be blinded by this affair with my country, haven't traveled outside, and think that even if I travel abroad, I would still consider my country as the first option for anything I see as the best - you see...blinded by love - one-sided, I guess ;-)
From India, Madras
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Please don't portray it as Indian Character. I have had a bad experience with a US client - Merck Pharmaceuticals. I worked so hard for their positions, and being in this business, you will definitely know the amount of documentation and quality we maintain for international clients (ours is ISO certified).
After providing almost 200 candidates for 32 locations across the US, I learned from the VP of Recruitments that the HIRING MANAGER was faking all the positions. No such positions existed, and in the process, one of my candidates was placed, but the Hiring Manager did not inform us. Luckily, I had access to their ATS and found out.
Later, the Hiring Manager was fired due to a few other mishandlings too.
So it was my first experience and lesson on "Never worship the client." Always get to the core of the reality and find out if the company is truly hiring.
My experience with Unisys was wonderful - they have the perfect hiring strategy.
Let me tell you, it's the individual attitude of the employee that can change the way an outsider looks at the company. Please don't put it as the Indian Way (oops, I am sensitive when someone points out my country). Again - I may be blinded by this affair with my country, haven't traveled outside, and think that even if I travel abroad, I would still consider my country as the first option for anything I see as the best - you see...blinded by love - one-sided, I guess ;-)
From India, Madras
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Hi, I agree with you, but I think by doing this act, they are being loyal to the company and working for what they are paid for. Consultants don't have an association or a body to fight for their problems and rights, nor do we have some defined status of a consultant. So, we are at their mercy and easily replaceable.
From India, New Delhi
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From India, New Delhi
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Another point GHA:
What happens is, already the resumes on job boards are downloaded, and a few corporate HRs send them to the technical manager for shortlisting. The technical managers take their own sweet time in responding. During this time, you may have spoken to a nice candidate whose resume has already been forwarded to the tech manager. So, technically, the candidate is in the process of "consideration" already. Only if the tech manager nods his head, the corporate HR initiates a conversation.
I am telling you - make sure the candidate has not put their resume on job boards. Even if they did, talk to the client and ask them who the candidates in the process are so that repetition will be minimal. You can ask for the names alone, no harm.
From India, Madras
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What happens is, already the resumes on job boards are downloaded, and a few corporate HRs send them to the technical manager for shortlisting. The technical managers take their own sweet time in responding. During this time, you may have spoken to a nice candidate whose resume has already been forwarded to the tech manager. So, technically, the candidate is in the process of "consideration" already. Only if the tech manager nods his head, the corporate HR initiates a conversation.
I am telling you - make sure the candidate has not put their resume on job boards. Even if they did, talk to the client and ask them who the candidates in the process are so that repetition will be minimal. You can ask for the names alone, no harm.
From India, Madras
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