It is most urgent, please help me somebody.
We are running a chemical industry for the past 25 years in Srikakulam. At the time of erection, we hired an employee in the year 1988 as a gardener without any Date of Birth (DOB) certificate. He provided his DOB in the PF form 2A as 10.06.1953. The DOB he provided seems to be incorrect, and now I need an authorized DOB from him. How can we obtain this from him? Is there a specific process for this? If so, please advise me.
For further clarification, please note the following points:
1. He is uneducated.
2. He has no children.
3. He is not a native of Srikakulam (where the plant is located).
4. I do not consider the Ration Card or Aadhar Card as appropriate proof of an authorized DOB.
From India, Visakhapatnam
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3We are running a chemical industry for the past 25 years in Srikakulam. At the time of erection, we hired an employee in the year 1988 as a gardener without any Date of Birth (DOB) certificate. He provided his DOB in the PF form 2A as 10.06.1953. The DOB he provided seems to be incorrect, and now I need an authorized DOB from him. How can we obtain this from him? Is there a specific process for this? If so, please advise me.
For further clarification, please note the following points:
1. He is uneducated.
2. He has no children.
3. He is not a native of Srikakulam (where the plant is located).
4. I do not consider the Ration Card or Aadhar Card as appropriate proof of an authorized DOB.
From India, Visakhapatnam
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Dear Friend, if he is an illeterate then you can ask him to get a certificate from a Govt medical officer. Regards - kamesh
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Dear bv.smartchem,
There are two issues in this case. Firstly, the employee is an uneducated gardener. He will not know his date of birth, and even if someone told him, he will not remember it. Secondly, if he says he was born on 10.06.1953, despite being uneducated, please accept it.
Ration card and Aadhar Cards can't be issued like that, especially Aadhar Card. You have the freedom to either accept or reject it. Even if he goes to a government medical officer, the officer will certify based on what the employee narrates, and there is no other way.
Another alternative is for him to go to his hometown where he was either born or brought up and obtain a birth certificate certified by the Village Sarpanch, who has the authority to issue a noting. This noting can be produced at the Birth & Death Records Office, which will then issue a birth certificate that you have no option but to accept.
Lastly, I would like to ask you a simple question. He is a single man, not from the workplace, has no children, and is uneducated. So, why are you so desperate to prove his date of birth? There must be some underlying issues. Without knowing these issues, we can't guide you properly.
With warm wishes.
From India, Pune
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There are two issues in this case. Firstly, the employee is an uneducated gardener. He will not know his date of birth, and even if someone told him, he will not remember it. Secondly, if he says he was born on 10.06.1953, despite being uneducated, please accept it.
Ration card and Aadhar Cards can't be issued like that, especially Aadhar Card. You have the freedom to either accept or reject it. Even if he goes to a government medical officer, the officer will certify based on what the employee narrates, and there is no other way.
Another alternative is for him to go to his hometown where he was either born or brought up and obtain a birth certificate certified by the Village Sarpanch, who has the authority to issue a noting. This noting can be produced at the Birth & Death Records Office, which will then issue a birth certificate that you have no option but to accept.
Lastly, I would like to ask you a simple question. He is a single man, not from the workplace, has no children, and is uneducated. So, why are you so desperate to prove his date of birth? There must be some underlying issues. Without knowing these issues, we can't guide you properly.
With warm wishes.
From India, Pune
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Dear Bv.Smartchem,
I totally agree with vpk55pune. In addition, I would like to know whether the date of birth declared by the employee concerned was at the time of his appointment or at a later stage, i.e., recently when he was asked to do so. If the former is the case, there is no need to dig in without any purpose, which is not clear from the query. If the latter is the case, and since the workman is uneducated, you may request the competent authority to set up a Medical Board consisting of an Eye Specialist, a Bone Specialist, a Physician, a representative of Distt. Sadar Hospital I/c, and a Personnel/HR Manager who will examine the employee clinically and apparently. Based on their findings, I am sure they will be able to assess the age of the employee concerned with near accuracy.
But it is my humble suggestion that you do not go for it unless it is in the interest of the employee concerned or the company's larger interest. Just doing so to harass somebody because someone doesn't believe that the employee has revealed his correct age is not ethical.
Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us.
AK Jain
HR Personnel
NCL/CIL
From India, New+Delhi
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I totally agree with vpk55pune. In addition, I would like to know whether the date of birth declared by the employee concerned was at the time of his appointment or at a later stage, i.e., recently when he was asked to do so. If the former is the case, there is no need to dig in without any purpose, which is not clear from the query. If the latter is the case, and since the workman is uneducated, you may request the competent authority to set up a Medical Board consisting of an Eye Specialist, a Bone Specialist, a Physician, a representative of Distt. Sadar Hospital I/c, and a Personnel/HR Manager who will examine the employee clinically and apparently. Based on their findings, I am sure they will be able to assess the age of the employee concerned with near accuracy.
But it is my humble suggestion that you do not go for it unless it is in the interest of the employee concerned or the company's larger interest. Just doing so to harass somebody because someone doesn't believe that the employee has revealed his correct age is not ethical.
Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us.
AK Jain
HR Personnel
NCL/CIL
From India, New+Delhi
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In the 1950s, registration of birth was not mandatory, and people very rarely did this. Even during admission, the school believed in the DOB parents gave orally.
After 60 years, you cannot expect somebody to produce an authorized DOB. His elders, if alive, must be above 80 years and less likely to remember the exact Date of Birth. A better option would be to accept what he has given, let it be for any purpose.
A ration card doesn't have a DOB. But, Aadhaar does. There is no harm in accepting Aadhaar as proof of DOB.
Even if, by some means, you prove that the person has given the wrong DOB, you cannot take legal action against him after 25 years in service. He is 60 years old, and the court will just say you are harassing him to stop his retirement benefits.
From India, Chennai
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After 60 years, you cannot expect somebody to produce an authorized DOB. His elders, if alive, must be above 80 years and less likely to remember the exact Date of Birth. A better option would be to accept what he has given, let it be for any purpose.
A ration card doesn't have a DOB. But, Aadhaar does. There is no harm in accepting Aadhaar as proof of DOB.
Even if, by some means, you prove that the person has given the wrong DOB, you cannot take legal action against him after 25 years in service. He is 60 years old, and the court will just say you are harassing him to stop his retirement benefits.
From India, Chennai
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Very well said, Dear Member - HR4NATION.
Now I realize that with a date of birth (DOB) as 10.06.1953, the employee must have retired on superannuation in June 2013. And now, the company is playing tricks to harass the ex-employee and finding ways to forfeit his terminal dues. Very bad and unethical.
I would request the member Bv.Smartchem not to be a party to such malpractice but rather to help the employee by persuading the higher management in the employee's favor.
Best wishes,
AK Jain HR Personnel NCL, CIL.
From India, New+Delhi
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Now I realize that with a date of birth (DOB) as 10.06.1953, the employee must have retired on superannuation in June 2013. And now, the company is playing tricks to harass the ex-employee and finding ways to forfeit his terminal dues. Very bad and unethical.
I would request the member Bv.Smartchem not to be a party to such malpractice but rather to help the employee by persuading the higher management in the employee's favor.
Best wishes,
AK Jain HR Personnel NCL, CIL.
From India, New+Delhi
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If you hold up his benefits or create any problems, and if the employee goes to court, there is a 90% chance that he will win the case and may even get a substantial award against your company.
Further, please look up the law on estoppel. I am not trying to frighten you but just outlining a definite legal possibility.
Why is the company wasting time looking up the date of birth of an employee who might have already retired as pointed out by HR4nation?
Lastly, as Shri. Jain ji has said, "Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us."
Cheers, Sarma
From India, Bangalore
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Further, please look up the law on estoppel. I am not trying to frighten you but just outlining a definite legal possibility.
Why is the company wasting time looking up the date of birth of an employee who might have already retired as pointed out by HR4nation?
Lastly, as Shri. Jain ji has said, "Best wishes. May good sense prevail on all of us."
Cheers, Sarma
From India, Bangalore
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Dear friends,
It so happened that both of our date and month are the same, only the years differ. However, keeping aside the purpose for which the query has been raised, in the matter of a dispute over the real date of birth (DOB) of an employee where no authentic proof or record is available, the only option is to refer him to the Government District Surgeon to examine and certify his probable DOB, which can be safely acted upon. I am not aware of what the retiring age is in your establishment. Also, it is not clear why you disputed the DOB as mentioned in his PF Form 2A, which has been in use as the official DOB all these years. What prompted this dispute? Do you wish to extend his service by lowering his year of birth or something similar? Or did he raise any dispute over this?
From India, Bangalore
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It so happened that both of our date and month are the same, only the years differ. However, keeping aside the purpose for which the query has been raised, in the matter of a dispute over the real date of birth (DOB) of an employee where no authentic proof or record is available, the only option is to refer him to the Government District Surgeon to examine and certify his probable DOB, which can be safely acted upon. I am not aware of what the retiring age is in your establishment. Also, it is not clear why you disputed the DOB as mentioned in his PF Form 2A, which has been in use as the official DOB all these years. What prompted this dispute? Do you wish to extend his service by lowering his year of birth or something similar? Or did he raise any dispute over this?
From India, Bangalore
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Dear All,
After reading all the comments given by all of you, I don't understand why all are pointing fingers at me. I have simply asked if there is a process for obtaining the authorized date of birth from an employee who did not submit it at the time of joining or during their service period. I do not feel that I am harassing the employee or playing tricks on them. It is mandatory for us, as HR professionals, to collect the required documents at the time of joining or during the service period. I have recently joined this establishment and checked all the personal files of the employees, where I came across this particular case. In order to streamline the gaps I identified while checking, I have asked for your suggestions, and I believe that the necessary documents should be included in the personal file. Now, I am inquiring about the missing file.
In our organization, the retirement age is 60 years. According to his date of birth, his present age is 50 years. The company still has to keep him for another 10 years without proper documents. Someone made a mistake by not collecting the necessary documents. Should I continue with the same mistake? Hence, I am requesting the authorized document.
I have taken the following steps. Please advise if they are right or wrong:
1. I have issued a formal letter requesting him to submit his date of birth certificate within 3 days.
2. If he does not submit the letter, I will write a letter to the Medical Board requesting to examine one of the employees and confirm the date of birth through a medical test, with a copy to the concerned employee.
I am not criticizing your comments. Thank you all for sharing your views.
Regards,
Venkat Ramana.B
From India, Visakhapatnam
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After reading all the comments given by all of you, I don't understand why all are pointing fingers at me. I have simply asked if there is a process for obtaining the authorized date of birth from an employee who did not submit it at the time of joining or during their service period. I do not feel that I am harassing the employee or playing tricks on them. It is mandatory for us, as HR professionals, to collect the required documents at the time of joining or during the service period. I have recently joined this establishment and checked all the personal files of the employees, where I came across this particular case. In order to streamline the gaps I identified while checking, I have asked for your suggestions, and I believe that the necessary documents should be included in the personal file. Now, I am inquiring about the missing file.
In our organization, the retirement age is 60 years. According to his date of birth, his present age is 50 years. The company still has to keep him for another 10 years without proper documents. Someone made a mistake by not collecting the necessary documents. Should I continue with the same mistake? Hence, I am requesting the authorized document.
I have taken the following steps. Please advise if they are right or wrong:
1. I have issued a formal letter requesting him to submit his date of birth certificate within 3 days.
2. If he does not submit the letter, I will write a letter to the Medical Board requesting to examine one of the employees and confirm the date of birth through a medical test, with a copy to the concerned employee.
I am not criticizing your comments. Thank you all for sharing your views.
Regards,
Venkat Ramana.B
From India, Visakhapatnam
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Dear Bv.Smartchem,
Good initiative by you in streamlining the documentation. BTW, what are the documents acceptable by your company as authorized documents? Have you mentioned it in the letter issued to that illiterate person? Otherwise, he will be running around at the wrong place looking for the wrong document.
If your aim is proper documentation, the easiest way will be to just ask for an affidavit from the concerned employee regarding his DOB and keep it in his personal file. The expenditure on the Medical board and experts is all wasteful.
As per the existing legal position, you cannot compel anyone born before 1978 or 1979 to produce a birth certificate. You have to either accept the verbal submission or can ask for an affidavit. The affidavit is nothing but again a verbal submission before a designated authority and documented. The DOB as in a matric certificate/board certificate is again a verbal submission before a designated authority (here the principal of a high school) and documented.
The most amusing part is, as an employer, you can issue an authorized certificate regarding his DOB based upon your records, which will be acceptable to all authorities.
Carry on your good initiative.
Premendra Pranay
From India, Mumbai
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Good initiative by you in streamlining the documentation. BTW, what are the documents acceptable by your company as authorized documents? Have you mentioned it in the letter issued to that illiterate person? Otherwise, he will be running around at the wrong place looking for the wrong document.
If your aim is proper documentation, the easiest way will be to just ask for an affidavit from the concerned employee regarding his DOB and keep it in his personal file. The expenditure on the Medical board and experts is all wasteful.
As per the existing legal position, you cannot compel anyone born before 1978 or 1979 to produce a birth certificate. You have to either accept the verbal submission or can ask for an affidavit. The affidavit is nothing but again a verbal submission before a designated authority and documented. The DOB as in a matric certificate/board certificate is again a verbal submission before a designated authority (here the principal of a high school) and documented.
The most amusing part is, as an employer, you can issue an authorized certificate regarding his DOB based upon your records, which will be acceptable to all authorities.
Carry on your good initiative.
Premendra Pranay
From India, Mumbai
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