Saswata da, we will have a detailed discussion if you are ready. Even I have learned a lot from all of you. Please be patient and calm, read all my comments with a cool head, and then you will understand by yourself what I mean to say.
Saswata da, I will wait for your reply. If you wish, we can discuss all pros and cons privately. Thanda mathay poro dada, ato rag korcho kano. Ami khub confident na holay boltam na. We can also discuss over emails; my email id is Sovikbhattacharjee7@gmail.com.
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
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49Saswata da, I will wait for your reply. If you wish, we can discuss all pros and cons privately. Thanda mathay poro dada, ato rag korcho kano. Ami khub confident na holay boltam na. We can also discuss over emails; my email id is Sovikbhattacharjee7@gmail.com.
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
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Hi Saswata Da,
What I mean to say is like this (for similar cases), but this will only be possible if Gaurav can gather circumstantial evidence:
1. We can file a writ petition.
2. We can clearly state the allegations against the company, and we will gather circumstantial evidence.
3. Circumstantial evidence will include photos of the party, along with witnesses if available, and invoices showing the company has sponsored the party along with alcoholic drinks.
4. After consuming alcohol, Gaurav loses control of his senses and misbehaves unintentionally. He even apologizes later when he regains his senses.
5. According to Gaurav's comment, no investigation took place and termination happened immediately. The company may claim his performance was poor or it was a layoff, but the question arises - why was he terminated immediately post that incident? Is it just a coincidence?
6. Here comes the need for RTI. Based on the writ, the commissioner can obtain information about the reason for termination. We must know this information once the commission possesses it, as we need to understand the company's stance first to proceed further. The company may choose not to provide information, but at least we can argue that it may be crucial for someone's career and the information cannot be considered a trade secret or anything that could jeopardize the company's competitive advantage.
7. Saswata Da, you are well aware that companies these days do not prefer to include clauses that allow an employee to be terminated without reason, with no notice and no salary at any time. The reason is that no one would be interested in joining under such conditions. Having spent some time in sourcing, I am familiar with some of their strategies. Therefore, I advised Gaurav to share all the clauses mentioned in the appointment/offer letter before taking any action and to gather as much evidence as possible.
8. The reason for the legal battle should not be to challenge the decision but to remove the 'termination on disciplinary grounds'. I am not sure of Gaurav's designation, but for us, if someone is in mid-management or senior management, such allegations can be detrimental, especially if they are associated with the finance/cash department. If the termination was due to poor performance, layoff, or business needs, these aspects would not have been as crucial. I would have suggested him to take it sportingly and move on.
9. Saswata Da, you are aware that if a company sponsors parties, they do not consider them official if intoxicating products are involved. The reason is that it is challenging for them to justify why they sponsor intoxicating products when they know that discipline is crucial at such events and people may lose control after consuming them. Even the party's premises are essential to understand the case.
Now, Saswata Da, I await your suggestions. You are a senior member, different from any other common HR professional, with extensive experience in labor laws and compliance audits. The welfare issues of a company are also affected.
This is just one perspective. I look forward to your reply and suggestions.
Regards,
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
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What I mean to say is like this (for similar cases), but this will only be possible if Gaurav can gather circumstantial evidence:
1. We can file a writ petition.
2. We can clearly state the allegations against the company, and we will gather circumstantial evidence.
3. Circumstantial evidence will include photos of the party, along with witnesses if available, and invoices showing the company has sponsored the party along with alcoholic drinks.
4. After consuming alcohol, Gaurav loses control of his senses and misbehaves unintentionally. He even apologizes later when he regains his senses.
5. According to Gaurav's comment, no investigation took place and termination happened immediately. The company may claim his performance was poor or it was a layoff, but the question arises - why was he terminated immediately post that incident? Is it just a coincidence?
6. Here comes the need for RTI. Based on the writ, the commissioner can obtain information about the reason for termination. We must know this information once the commission possesses it, as we need to understand the company's stance first to proceed further. The company may choose not to provide information, but at least we can argue that it may be crucial for someone's career and the information cannot be considered a trade secret or anything that could jeopardize the company's competitive advantage.
7. Saswata Da, you are well aware that companies these days do not prefer to include clauses that allow an employee to be terminated without reason, with no notice and no salary at any time. The reason is that no one would be interested in joining under such conditions. Having spent some time in sourcing, I am familiar with some of their strategies. Therefore, I advised Gaurav to share all the clauses mentioned in the appointment/offer letter before taking any action and to gather as much evidence as possible.
8. The reason for the legal battle should not be to challenge the decision but to remove the 'termination on disciplinary grounds'. I am not sure of Gaurav's designation, but for us, if someone is in mid-management or senior management, such allegations can be detrimental, especially if they are associated with the finance/cash department. If the termination was due to poor performance, layoff, or business needs, these aspects would not have been as crucial. I would have suggested him to take it sportingly and move on.
9. Saswata Da, you are aware that if a company sponsors parties, they do not consider them official if intoxicating products are involved. The reason is that it is challenging for them to justify why they sponsor intoxicating products when they know that discipline is crucial at such events and people may lose control after consuming them. Even the party's premises are essential to understand the case.
Now, Saswata Da, I await your suggestions. You are a senior member, different from any other common HR professional, with extensive experience in labor laws and compliance audits. The welfare issues of a company are also affected.
This is just one perspective. I look forward to your reply and suggestions.
Regards,
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
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Please stick to English in your posts Most of the readers will not be able to understand what you said
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Saswata da,
I have only said to you, please read first what I have said in a cool and calm head; there is no reason to get excited. I said being a senior member and a very good auditor, please try to understand the case from all possible angles and don't stick to any particular angle by a preconceived notion. I have said I am not against you or any other HR; rather, I know that your blessings will always be there with me. Even I have also learned a lot from all of you. If required, we can have a discussion privately. If I have said anything wrong, then I am sincerely sorry; you are most welcome to share the same publicly in this forum and rectify me. I would respect that.
Anyway, Personally, Saswata da, I respect you a lot; hope you can understand my stand now and why, unlike others, I can't say Gaurav, please take it sportingly and forget it as a bad dream; opportunities will come in the future. I might not have as much experience as you, but I have performed a few audits too. Hope you can understand that as HR compliance auditors, our hands are tied by the laws of the land; even if we have sympathy/empathy for HRs/employees, if we come across such issues, we have to stick to the path shown by the laws.
So, since you have not objected to my proposal/view or raised any question, I am considering your silence as consent. I am getting out of this discussion; and at any time if anyone has a doubt/question, we can have a discussion and sort it out. Hope this thread has become a source for a lot of knowledge sharing.
May God bless you all and take care.
Thanks and Regards,
Sovik B
MBA- HR and Finance
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University Of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S Enterprise.
From India, Mumbai
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I have only said to you, please read first what I have said in a cool and calm head; there is no reason to get excited. I said being a senior member and a very good auditor, please try to understand the case from all possible angles and don't stick to any particular angle by a preconceived notion. I have said I am not against you or any other HR; rather, I know that your blessings will always be there with me. Even I have also learned a lot from all of you. If required, we can have a discussion privately. If I have said anything wrong, then I am sincerely sorry; you are most welcome to share the same publicly in this forum and rectify me. I would respect that.
Anyway, Personally, Saswata da, I respect you a lot; hope you can understand my stand now and why, unlike others, I can't say Gaurav, please take it sportingly and forget it as a bad dream; opportunities will come in the future. I might not have as much experience as you, but I have performed a few audits too. Hope you can understand that as HR compliance auditors, our hands are tied by the laws of the land; even if we have sympathy/empathy for HRs/employees, if we come across such issues, we have to stick to the path shown by the laws.
So, since you have not objected to my proposal/view or raised any question, I am considering your silence as consent. I am getting out of this discussion; and at any time if anyone has a doubt/question, we can have a discussion and sort it out. Hope this thread has become a source for a lot of knowledge sharing.
May God bless you all and take care.
Thanks and Regards,
Sovik B
MBA- HR and Finance
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University Of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S Enterprise.
From India, Mumbai
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This is only for HR's, HR compliance auditors, students- learners & professionals associated with the Human Resource Department:
Hi,
Many are there who still have many doubts & confusion; I have received a few emails. I am trying to explain in simple English so that even a layman (students/ freshers) can understand. Seniors, please rectify me if I am wrong. This is only for this specific case.
Behind any termination, HR compliance auditors verify & validate 2 factors (very important) whether they met legal compliance or not:
1. Decision of termination.
2. Reason for termination or reason shown behind termination.
In this case, these 2 angles should be considered:
3. Whether the decision of termination can be legally challenged by the employee?
Ans: No.
4. Whether the reason for termination or the reason shown behind termination can be legally challenged or not?
Ans: Yes, provided if a private company shows that the reason for termination was on disciplinary grounds and circumstantial evidence is found to be strong enough. Ideally, it would only imply to remove or waive off 'Termination on disciplinary ground' - challengeable legally. If the company is adamant, both civil & criminal charges can be brought, based on the company's stance.
Important Note: If the company doesn't show any reason behind termination, it's absolutely fine - no need to challenge the decision. It can be considered as a layoff. However, if the employee later shows this experience anywhere else and the previous company claims that they terminated the employee on disciplinary grounds in their feedback (official stance), then it is challengeable. Both civil & criminal laws need to be followed in this case.
A company cannot have two different stances simultaneously. Once they show in their papers, letterheads that they terminated an employee without assigning any reason, and later claim they had a genuine reason behind the termination (disciplinary ground) in their feedback, it becomes legally challengeable.
Now, an important question: who should challenge with respect to point 4?
Ans: Anyone can challenge, but it is advisable that only mid-management executives & senior executives should ideally challenge. The reason is they already have a long professional experience and this kind of feedback can cost a lot for them in later stages, especially those connected with finance, cash handling, and marketing professions.
Hope everyone can understand this case. Over and out, take care.
Thanks & Regards,
Sovik B
MBA - HR & Finance
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S Enterprise.
From India, Mumbai
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Hi,
Many are there who still have many doubts & confusion; I have received a few emails. I am trying to explain in simple English so that even a layman (students/ freshers) can understand. Seniors, please rectify me if I am wrong. This is only for this specific case.
Behind any termination, HR compliance auditors verify & validate 2 factors (very important) whether they met legal compliance or not:
1. Decision of termination.
2. Reason for termination or reason shown behind termination.
In this case, these 2 angles should be considered:
3. Whether the decision of termination can be legally challenged by the employee?
Ans: No.
4. Whether the reason for termination or the reason shown behind termination can be legally challenged or not?
Ans: Yes, provided if a private company shows that the reason for termination was on disciplinary grounds and circumstantial evidence is found to be strong enough. Ideally, it would only imply to remove or waive off 'Termination on disciplinary ground' - challengeable legally. If the company is adamant, both civil & criminal charges can be brought, based on the company's stance.
Important Note: If the company doesn't show any reason behind termination, it's absolutely fine - no need to challenge the decision. It can be considered as a layoff. However, if the employee later shows this experience anywhere else and the previous company claims that they terminated the employee on disciplinary grounds in their feedback (official stance), then it is challengeable. Both civil & criminal laws need to be followed in this case.
A company cannot have two different stances simultaneously. Once they show in their papers, letterheads that they terminated an employee without assigning any reason, and later claim they had a genuine reason behind the termination (disciplinary ground) in their feedback, it becomes legally challengeable.
Now, an important question: who should challenge with respect to point 4?
Ans: Anyone can challenge, but it is advisable that only mid-management executives & senior executives should ideally challenge. The reason is they already have a long professional experience and this kind of feedback can cost a lot for them in later stages, especially those connected with finance, cash handling, and marketing professions.
Hope everyone can understand this case. Over and out, take care.
Thanks & Regards,
Sovik B
MBA - HR & Finance
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S Enterprise.
From India, Mumbai
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