Saswata da, we will have a detailed discussion, if you are ready. Even I have learned a lot from you all. Please be patient & calm, read all my comments in a cool head, then you will understand by your self what I mean to say.
Saswata da, I will wait for your reply. If you wish we can discuss all pros & cons privately. Thanda mathay poro dada, ato rag korcho kano. Ami khub confident na holay boltam na. We can also discuss over the e-mails, my email id is
.
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
48Saswata da, I will wait for your reply. If you wish we can discuss all pros & cons privately. Thanda mathay poro dada, ato rag korcho kano. Ami khub confident na holay boltam na. We can also discuss over the e-mails, my email id is
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
Hi,
Saswata Da,
What I mean to say, is like this ( for similar cases) but this will only be possible if Gaurav can gather circumstantial evidences:
1. We can file a writ petition.
2. we can clearly say the allegation against company & we will gather circumstantial evidences.
3. Circumstantial evidences will include photos of that party, along with witness if available, and invoices showing company has sponsored party along with alcoholic drinks.
4. After, consuming alcohol, Gaurav loses his control of senses. And misbehaved unintentionally. Even apologized, later when he got his senses back.
5. As per Gaurav's comment, no investigation taken place & termination happens immediately. Company may claim that is performance was poor or layoff, but question is then why he got terminated immediately post that incidence, is it just a co-incidence.
6. Here comes need of RTI, as based on writ, commissioner can get information about the reason of termination, we must know it once this information is possessed by commission as we must know company's stand first, to move further. Company may also opt not to provide information. But at least, we can say this may be important for someone's career, and information cant be considered under trade secret or any such things that may cost company to lose competitive advantage.
7. Saswata da, you know very well companies these days, don't prefer to mention clause that an employee can be terminated without providing the reason, anytime & no notice + no salary. Reason is no one will be interested to join. I spent some time in sourcing, so I know atleast some of their strategies. So I asked Gaurav before taking any action share all the clause mentioned in Appointment/offer letter. And to gather as mush evidence as he can.
8. Reason of legal fight should not be to challenge the decision, rather to remove 'termination on disciplinary ground'. I don't know in which designation he works, but for us, if someone is working in Mid management or Senior management, this kind of allegation cost a lot, if he/she is associated with finance/ cash department. If this termination was against, poor performance, layoff or business needs all these angles were not important. Even I would have suggested him, to take it sportingly & forget it.
9. Saswata da, even you know this fact that if company sponsor for parties, they don't claim it official party if intoxicating products are there. Reason is its very difficult to defend for them that ' when they know that in such parties discipline is mandatory, then why they sponsor intoxicating product after they knew this fact that people lose their senses after getting intoxicated. Even premises of party is also important, to understand the case.
Now, Saswata da, I would wait for your suggestion. You are one of the senior member, much different from any other common Hr, you have spent a lot of time (many years) in Labor laws & compliance audits. Welfare issue of a company is also effected.
This is just a one way. Would wait for you reply & suggestion.
Regards
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
Saswata Da,
What I mean to say, is like this ( for similar cases) but this will only be possible if Gaurav can gather circumstantial evidences:
1. We can file a writ petition.
2. we can clearly say the allegation against company & we will gather circumstantial evidences.
3. Circumstantial evidences will include photos of that party, along with witness if available, and invoices showing company has sponsored party along with alcoholic drinks.
4. After, consuming alcohol, Gaurav loses his control of senses. And misbehaved unintentionally. Even apologized, later when he got his senses back.
5. As per Gaurav's comment, no investigation taken place & termination happens immediately. Company may claim that is performance was poor or layoff, but question is then why he got terminated immediately post that incidence, is it just a co-incidence.
6. Here comes need of RTI, as based on writ, commissioner can get information about the reason of termination, we must know it once this information is possessed by commission as we must know company's stand first, to move further. Company may also opt not to provide information. But at least, we can say this may be important for someone's career, and information cant be considered under trade secret or any such things that may cost company to lose competitive advantage.
7. Saswata da, you know very well companies these days, don't prefer to mention clause that an employee can be terminated without providing the reason, anytime & no notice + no salary. Reason is no one will be interested to join. I spent some time in sourcing, so I know atleast some of their strategies. So I asked Gaurav before taking any action share all the clause mentioned in Appointment/offer letter. And to gather as mush evidence as he can.
8. Reason of legal fight should not be to challenge the decision, rather to remove 'termination on disciplinary ground'. I don't know in which designation he works, but for us, if someone is working in Mid management or Senior management, this kind of allegation cost a lot, if he/she is associated with finance/ cash department. If this termination was against, poor performance, layoff or business needs all these angles were not important. Even I would have suggested him, to take it sportingly & forget it.
9. Saswata da, even you know this fact that if company sponsor for parties, they don't claim it official party if intoxicating products are there. Reason is its very difficult to defend for them that ' when they know that in such parties discipline is mandatory, then why they sponsor intoxicating product after they knew this fact that people lose their senses after getting intoxicated. Even premises of party is also important, to understand the case.
Now, Saswata da, I would wait for your suggestion. You are one of the senior member, much different from any other common Hr, you have spent a lot of time (many years) in Labor laws & compliance audits. Welfare issue of a company is also effected.
This is just a one way. Would wait for you reply & suggestion.
Regards
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
Please stick to English in your posts Most of the readers will not be able to understand what you said
From India, Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Saswata da,
I have only said to you, please read first what I have said in cool & calm head, there is no reason to get excited. I said being a senior member & a very good auditor, please try to understand the case from all possible angles & don't stick to any particular angle by a pre conceived notion. I have said I am not against you or any other HR, rather I know that your blessings will always be there with me. Even I have also learned a lot from you all. If required we can have a discussion privately. If I have said anything wrong, then I am sincerely sorry, you are most welcome to share the same publicly in this forum & rectify me. I would respect that.
Anyway, Personally, Saswata da, I respect you a lot, hope you can understand my stand now & why unlike others, I cant say Gaurav, please take it sportingly & forget it as a bad dream, opportunities will come in future. I might not have a good experience like you, but I have perform a few audits, too. Hope you can understand, as HR compliance auditors our hands are tied by laws of the land & even if we have sympathy/empathy for HR's /employees if we come across such issues we have to stick by the path showed by laws.
So, since you have not objected my proposal/view or raised any question, I am considering your silence as a consent. I am getting out of this discussion & at anytime if anyone have a doubt/question, we can have a discussion & sort it out. Hope, this thread has become a source for a lot of knowledge sharing mode.
May god bless you all & take care.
Thanks & Regards
Sovik B
MBA- HR & FINANCE
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University Of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S ENTERPRISE.
From India, Mumbai
I have only said to you, please read first what I have said in cool & calm head, there is no reason to get excited. I said being a senior member & a very good auditor, please try to understand the case from all possible angles & don't stick to any particular angle by a pre conceived notion. I have said I am not against you or any other HR, rather I know that your blessings will always be there with me. Even I have also learned a lot from you all. If required we can have a discussion privately. If I have said anything wrong, then I am sincerely sorry, you are most welcome to share the same publicly in this forum & rectify me. I would respect that.
Anyway, Personally, Saswata da, I respect you a lot, hope you can understand my stand now & why unlike others, I cant say Gaurav, please take it sportingly & forget it as a bad dream, opportunities will come in future. I might not have a good experience like you, but I have perform a few audits, too. Hope you can understand, as HR compliance auditors our hands are tied by laws of the land & even if we have sympathy/empathy for HR's /employees if we come across such issues we have to stick by the path showed by laws.
So, since you have not objected my proposal/view or raised any question, I am considering your silence as a consent. I am getting out of this discussion & at anytime if anyone have a doubt/question, we can have a discussion & sort it out. Hope, this thread has become a source for a lot of knowledge sharing mode.
May god bless you all & take care.
Thanks & Regards
Sovik B
MBA- HR & FINANCE
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University Of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S ENTERPRISE.
From India, Mumbai
THIS IS ONLY FOR HR'S, HR COMPLIENCE AUDITORS, STUDENTS- LEARNER & PROFESSIONALS ASSOCIATED WITH HUMAN RESOURCE DEPARTMENT:
Hi
Many are there who still have many doubts & confusion, I have received a few emails. I am trying to explain in simple English so that, even a layman (students/ fresher's) can understand. Seniors please rectify me if I am wrong. THIS IS ONLY FOR THIS SPECIFIC CASE.
Behind any termination, HR compliance auditors verify & validate 2 factors (very important) whether they met legal compliance or not:
1. Decision of termination.
2. Reason of termination or reason showed behind termination.
In this case, these 2 angles should be considered:
3. Whether decision of termination can be legally challenged or not by the employee?
Ans: No.
4. Whether reason of termination or reason showed behind termination can be legally challenged or not?
Ans: Yes ,provided if pvt company shows that, reason of termination: Terminated on disciplinary ground. And circumstantial evidence are found & strong enough. Ideally it would only imply to remove or wave off 'Termination on disciplinary ground'- challengeable legally. If company is adamant, both civil & criminal charges can be brought, based on stand of company.
Important Note: If company don't show any reason behind termination, its absolutely fine- NO NEED TO CHALLANGE THE DECISION. It can be considered as a layoff. BUT Later, if employee shows this experience anywhere else and previous company claim that, they have terminated the employee on disciplinary ground, in their feedback (official stand) then it is challengeable. And here both civil & criminal laws needs to be followed.
A company can not have two different stand, simultaneously. Once in their papers, letter heads ,they are showing that they are terminating an employee without assigning any reason. And later they are claiming that they had a genuine reason behind termination (disciplinary ground) in their feedback, become legally challengeable.
Now, an important question, who should challenge with respect to point 4?
Ans. Anyone can challenge, but it is advisable that only Mid management executives & senior executives should ideally challenge. Reason, is they already have a long professional experience & this kind of feedback can cost a lot for him/her in later stage. Especially those who are connected with Finance, cash handling, Marketing professional.
Hope, everyone can understand this case. Over & Out, take care.
Thanks & Regards
Sovik B
MBA- HR & FINANCE
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University Of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S ENTERPRISE.
From India, Mumbai
Hi
Many are there who still have many doubts & confusion, I have received a few emails. I am trying to explain in simple English so that, even a layman (students/ fresher's) can understand. Seniors please rectify me if I am wrong. THIS IS ONLY FOR THIS SPECIFIC CASE.
Behind any termination, HR compliance auditors verify & validate 2 factors (very important) whether they met legal compliance or not:
1. Decision of termination.
2. Reason of termination or reason showed behind termination.
In this case, these 2 angles should be considered:
3. Whether decision of termination can be legally challenged or not by the employee?
Ans: No.
4. Whether reason of termination or reason showed behind termination can be legally challenged or not?
Ans: Yes ,provided if pvt company shows that, reason of termination: Terminated on disciplinary ground. And circumstantial evidence are found & strong enough. Ideally it would only imply to remove or wave off 'Termination on disciplinary ground'- challengeable legally. If company is adamant, both civil & criminal charges can be brought, based on stand of company.
Important Note: If company don't show any reason behind termination, its absolutely fine- NO NEED TO CHALLANGE THE DECISION. It can be considered as a layoff. BUT Later, if employee shows this experience anywhere else and previous company claim that, they have terminated the employee on disciplinary ground, in their feedback (official stand) then it is challengeable. And here both civil & criminal laws needs to be followed.
A company can not have two different stand, simultaneously. Once in their papers, letter heads ,they are showing that they are terminating an employee without assigning any reason. And later they are claiming that they had a genuine reason behind termination (disciplinary ground) in their feedback, become legally challengeable.
Now, an important question, who should challenge with respect to point 4?
Ans. Anyone can challenge, but it is advisable that only Mid management executives & senior executives should ideally challenge. Reason, is they already have a long professional experience & this kind of feedback can cost a lot for him/her in later stage. Especially those who are connected with Finance, cash handling, Marketing professional.
Hope, everyone can understand this case. Over & Out, take care.
Thanks & Regards
Sovik B
MBA- HR & FINANCE
B.Sc, Ramakrishna Mission VC College, Rahara
Under- University Of Calcutta
Managing Director
S.S ENTERPRISE.
From India, Mumbai
Community Support and Knowledge-base on business, career and organisational prospects and issues - Register and Log In to CiteHR and post your query, download formats and be part of a fostered community of professionals.
Notice for termination of Contract Sample.doc
06b-Form VI-B (Notice of Commencement of Contract Work).pdf