Dear all thanks for reply but we have been served notice 1 year before and from last 1 year my dad is going their signing their register and coming back pf officer said he will calculate the liabilities by year end
From India, Dehra Dun
From India, Dehra Dun
Kamal,
The law requires the labour law records to be kept for a period of 3 years. Under comoany act, the records of vouchers, etc needs to be kept for 8 years. So he has the right to claim that he does not have older records.
The department can ask for and obtain balance sheet. But if the amount of salary is higher than normal, then only can the department draw conclusions of there being more people employed. Even then it's a refutable conclusion.
Cartage or loading unloading charges is not necessarily subject to PF deductions. The requirement of PF for contract workers are applicable only is some specific circumstances.
The department can not ask for first invoices, because in this case the records would be more than 8 years old and not required to be preserved by law. The case you pointed out, there was an existing investigation, so the records need to be kept till the investigations are completed and retention period does not apply....
Ofcourse, we do not have much information from the post to make an assessment, therefore, I am countering your arguments on an academic basis.
From India, Mumbai
2392The law requires the labour law records to be kept for a period of 3 years. Under comoany act, the records of vouchers, etc needs to be kept for 8 years. So he has the right to claim that he does not have older records.
The department can ask for and obtain balance sheet. But if the amount of salary is higher than normal, then only can the department draw conclusions of there being more people employed. Even then it's a refutable conclusion.
Cartage or loading unloading charges is not necessarily subject to PF deductions. The requirement of PF for contract workers are applicable only is some specific circumstances.
The department can not ask for first invoices, because in this case the records would be more than 8 years old and not required to be preserved by law. The case you pointed out, there was an existing investigation, so the records need to be kept till the investigations are completed and retention period does not apply....
Ofcourse, we do not have much information from the post to make an assessment, therefore, I am countering your arguments on an academic basis.
From India, Mumbai
Saswatata,
Firstly,Coolie & Cartage , Loading & Unloading is very much PF deductable if amoount is very high and the activities are frequent.. PF authority took 14 to 15% of total coolie & Cartage , loading & unloading charges as the wages and they detarmine the PF demand on that 14 to 15% amount.
Secondly, our 7A case filed after the incident happened.
Lastly , if company is registered under PF act in the year 2012 then PF department can ask for records from 2008-2009. In this case they are not willing to produce even a single documents to PF authority. I think the real fact is different in this case.
Again I told you that we Indians are smartar than god. To save 100 - 200 crores of compliances to different govt departments , I can easily set fire in my empty office . Police FIR will show that all records are gutted. Once you got FIR , you need not required to produce any documents ( for 8 years ) to any authorities by submitting one copy of FIR and affidevit only. In my case , I got relieved from ESI court also...It is like that " MERE PAAS 10 FACTORIES HAIN, PAISA HAIN, 1000 TRUCKS HAIN, 10 AIRCRAFT HAIN, TERE PAAS KYA HAIN ?" and the simple reply is " MERE PAAS FIR HAIN ."
From India, Kolkata
Firstly,Coolie & Cartage , Loading & Unloading is very much PF deductable if amoount is very high and the activities are frequent.. PF authority took 14 to 15% of total coolie & Cartage , loading & unloading charges as the wages and they detarmine the PF demand on that 14 to 15% amount.
Secondly, our 7A case filed after the incident happened.
Lastly , if company is registered under PF act in the year 2012 then PF department can ask for records from 2008-2009. In this case they are not willing to produce even a single documents to PF authority. I think the real fact is different in this case.
Again I told you that we Indians are smartar than god. To save 100 - 200 crores of compliances to different govt departments , I can easily set fire in my empty office . Police FIR will show that all records are gutted. Once you got FIR , you need not required to produce any documents ( for 8 years ) to any authorities by submitting one copy of FIR and affidevit only. In my case , I got relieved from ESI court also...It is like that " MERE PAAS 10 FACTORIES HAIN, PAISA HAIN, 1000 TRUCKS HAIN, 10 AIRCRAFT HAIN, TERE PAAS KYA HAIN ?" and the simple reply is " MERE PAAS FIR HAIN ."
From India, Kolkata
Saswata ,
Also in the case of dt007, for final coverage , PF authority can ask for whole records....if it is not possible to produce whole records , they can easily find out the real picture of the company from the balance sheets from 2002 to 2011..
I can tell you one real story from my experience....in the year 1999 , in a case of one ESI inspection...enforcement officer asked for records . as ordered by our management , I denied to produce records indirectly....Now I realise that these attitude was totally wrong.....these types of attitudes help them to smell a foul play...and we can easily come under the scanner of the authority...What happened next ?? after 15-20 days , ESI enforcement's 7 member team visited our office headed by one Dy Director and imposed Rs 1.25 crores demand....that time no setting worked..
Again in my another company , PF inspector conducted an Inspection and ask for 2 years record in the year 2009 , I supplied all the required documents. His table was filled up with N numbers of files, ledgers, journal, vouchers etc etc.....What happened next ?? he did not touch even a single papers..He just right down the contribution paid during that period with date of payment...then took the balance sheets and detarmined only Rs 25000/- demand which is very nominal..If I denied that time to produce any document and these amount can be raised to Rs 2.5 crores later on...
So in my opinon , I can say....you need not require to show any documents....but don't say No , we can't , we don't have, etc etc. Just tell them that we will show every documents ..we are ready to co-operate.....Always remember that any enforcement inspector always try to show that he is very strict in his first appearance. gradually they are melted. You have to deal him as an Ice breaker that time. Also if you fail to produce the minimum documents then it is also not fair...because they are also Govt employee....they will have to reply to their higher authority....
Also , I think when you are in a worst situation , please discuss with your higher management that how much you are willing to pay as a PF or ESI demand...after that you please negotiate with the PF inspector that you can pay Rs xyz as a demand.....they will do it...but in that case , you have to prepare some documents...it depends on the basis of your co-operation and intention with the authority...
From India, Kolkata
Also in the case of dt007, for final coverage , PF authority can ask for whole records....if it is not possible to produce whole records , they can easily find out the real picture of the company from the balance sheets from 2002 to 2011..
I can tell you one real story from my experience....in the year 1999 , in a case of one ESI inspection...enforcement officer asked for records . as ordered by our management , I denied to produce records indirectly....Now I realise that these attitude was totally wrong.....these types of attitudes help them to smell a foul play...and we can easily come under the scanner of the authority...What happened next ?? after 15-20 days , ESI enforcement's 7 member team visited our office headed by one Dy Director and imposed Rs 1.25 crores demand....that time no setting worked..
Again in my another company , PF inspector conducted an Inspection and ask for 2 years record in the year 2009 , I supplied all the required documents. His table was filled up with N numbers of files, ledgers, journal, vouchers etc etc.....What happened next ?? he did not touch even a single papers..He just right down the contribution paid during that period with date of payment...then took the balance sheets and detarmined only Rs 25000/- demand which is very nominal..If I denied that time to produce any document and these amount can be raised to Rs 2.5 crores later on...
So in my opinon , I can say....you need not require to show any documents....but don't say No , we can't , we don't have, etc etc. Just tell them that we will show every documents ..we are ready to co-operate.....Always remember that any enforcement inspector always try to show that he is very strict in his first appearance. gradually they are melted. You have to deal him as an Ice breaker that time. Also if you fail to produce the minimum documents then it is also not fair...because they are also Govt employee....they will have to reply to their higher authority....
Also , I think when you are in a worst situation , please discuss with your higher management that how much you are willing to pay as a PF or ESI demand...after that you please negotiate with the PF inspector that you can pay Rs xyz as a demand.....they will do it...but in that case , you have to prepare some documents...it depends on the basis of your co-operation and intention with the authority...
From India, Kolkata
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