Dear All,
In our company, employees receive a 500 rupee fine for each non-disciplinary deed (for example, mobile ringing during office hours, sitting in others' cabins, going to floors where they don't have access, leaving papers on the table after office hours, forgetting papers on the table after office hours, forgetting to switch off the light). This amount will be deducted from their salary as a salary advance.
Do you think this is ethical? Please share your views.
Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Bangalore
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In our company, employees receive a 500 rupee fine for each non-disciplinary deed (for example, mobile ringing during office hours, sitting in others' cabins, going to floors where they don't have access, leaving papers on the table after office hours, forgetting papers on the table after office hours, forgetting to switch off the light). This amount will be deducted from their salary as a salary advance.
Do you think this is ethical? Please share your views.
Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Ms. George,
It would be easy to look at the situation in the proper perspective if you can kindly answer the following:
What is the average salary of the employees subjected to this extraordinary punishment?
What is the likelihood of an employee committing two or more such misconducts in a month?
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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1446It would be easy to look at the situation in the proper perspective if you can kindly answer the following:
What is the average salary of the employees subjected to this extraordinary punishment?
What is the likelihood of an employee committing two or more such misconducts in a month?
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Ms. George,
It is surely unethical, though you may consider the average salary or perks. The salary is for executing their efforts, physically, or mentally.
Two things I could understand:
(1) You will have a high attrition rate over a very short time following this. Be geared up as a full-time recruiter instead.
(2) You are very ethical, you cannot withstand this as a custodian of HR and ethics. Kindly start for a lookout, as by your message, I am able to read that you will not be able to convince your management for a change.
All the message is quite okay, but the methodology of punishing is not good. You may only appeal to your employees to refrain from all these.
Good luck. God bless you.
From India, Madras
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It is surely unethical, though you may consider the average salary or perks. The salary is for executing their efforts, physically, or mentally.
Two things I could understand:
(1) You will have a high attrition rate over a very short time following this. Be geared up as a full-time recruiter instead.
(2) You are very ethical, you cannot withstand this as a custodian of HR and ethics. Kindly start for a lookout, as by your message, I am able to read that you will not be able to convince your management for a change.
All the message is quite okay, but the methodology of punishing is not good. You may only appeal to your employees to refrain from all these.
Good luck. God bless you.
From India, Madras
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Ms. George,
The practice is highly unethical. The head of the organization seems to be behaving like a headmaster of the yesteryears' schools with the philosophy of 'Spare the rod and spoil the child.' What next after deducting fines? Caning?
I agree with Capable. Very soon, you will have a horde of people leaving the company. It is not just about the money. It is the negative attitude a boss has towards his team which is a cause for concern. I am very sure there must be several such issues, which are not mentioned here. There are better ways of achieving the refinement in people. You can see this spectrum and decide on your further strategy.
- YOU WILL BE PUNISHED FOR SMOKING
- DON'T SMOKE
- PLEASE DON'T SMOKE
- THANK YOU FOR NOT SMOKING
From India, Delhi
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The practice is highly unethical. The head of the organization seems to be behaving like a headmaster of the yesteryears' schools with the philosophy of 'Spare the rod and spoil the child.' What next after deducting fines? Caning?
I agree with Capable. Very soon, you will have a horde of people leaving the company. It is not just about the money. It is the negative attitude a boss has towards his team which is a cause for concern. I am very sure there must be several such issues, which are not mentioned here. There are better ways of achieving the refinement in people. You can see this spectrum and decide on your further strategy.
- YOU WILL BE PUNISHED FOR SMOKING
- DON'T SMOKE
- PLEASE DON'T SMOKE
- THANK YOU FOR NOT SMOKING
From India, Delhi
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Thanks for the replies. I completely agree with Capable. We have a high attrition rate, and as of now, I need to concentrate the major portion of my time on recruitment. However, none of our employees seem to be happy. Ours is a very big organization where we have over 10,000 laborers and 500+ professional staff. We also have a high attrition rate among the staff. I have tried to convince our chairman, as I'm a member of the management. Unfortunately, the result was the worst; he told me that I am against the company policies.
As Mr. Riyaz said, currently, all our employees have a negative attitude towards management. However, nobody raises their voice as they are scared of the practice of immediate termination. I am really demotivated, but as an HR professional, I should not be. With only 2 years of experience, that too in this company itself, I'm confused. Is this really HR work that I'm doing? Should I continue my career with this company?
From India, Bangalore
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As Mr. Riyaz said, currently, all our employees have a negative attitude towards management. However, nobody raises their voice as they are scared of the practice of immediate termination. I am really demotivated, but as an HR professional, I should not be. With only 2 years of experience, that too in this company itself, I'm confused. Is this really HR work that I'm doing? Should I continue my career with this company?
From India, Bangalore
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Ms. George,
Thank you for sharing your situation with us. However, I have a few queries for you:
1. Do employees have the habit of leaving the lights on?
2. If you keep your mobile in silent mode, how does anyone know? It is usually a rule in most companies to keep mobiles on silent, and in some, employees are even required to submit their mobiles before entering cabins, which they can retrieve when leaving.
3. How do you access floors for which you have no permission, and why do you need to do so?
4. Do you keep your desk clean? In many offices, cleanliness is highly emphasized. You are fortunate to receive instructions to do so, as those who are not may face consequences. What are your thoughts on this?
Ms. George, imagine if you rent out your house and specify rules about cleanliness and maintenance. Those renting from you would likely comply to avoid fines. Similarly, cleanliness is crucial in a workplace setting, and adherence to such guidelines benefits all.
I have shared my thoughts with you, and while your situation may seem challenging, there are others facing worse circumstances. You are fortunate to be part of a well-mannered and disciplined company.
Congratulations on that!
Regards,
People Power Team.
From India, Bangalore
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Thank you for sharing your situation with us. However, I have a few queries for you:
1. Do employees have the habit of leaving the lights on?
2. If you keep your mobile in silent mode, how does anyone know? It is usually a rule in most companies to keep mobiles on silent, and in some, employees are even required to submit their mobiles before entering cabins, which they can retrieve when leaving.
3. How do you access floors for which you have no permission, and why do you need to do so?
4. Do you keep your desk clean? In many offices, cleanliness is highly emphasized. You are fortunate to receive instructions to do so, as those who are not may face consequences. What are your thoughts on this?
Ms. George, imagine if you rent out your house and specify rules about cleanliness and maintenance. Those renting from you would likely comply to avoid fines. Similarly, cleanliness is crucial in a workplace setting, and adherence to such guidelines benefits all.
I have shared my thoughts with you, and while your situation may seem challenging, there are others facing worse circumstances. You are fortunate to be part of a well-mannered and disciplined company.
Congratulations on that!
Regards,
People Power Team.
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Mr. George,
I understand your situation. The company makes policies for certain reasons. Once we step into the owner's shoes, we realize how difficult it is for him to make such decisions. He did not start the company easily, and now with over 10,000 laborers and 500+ professional staff, consider the additional pressures he faces that we may not even be aware of.
Employees are working and getting paid for their work, which is agreed upon. Neither the employee nor the employer is engaged in charity. If someone breaks the rules, they should be punished. Physical punishment is not something any employer should consider; therefore, monetary punishment is well defined.
In my opinion, it is not unethical for the MD or the management to terminate an individual and deduct a penalty from their salary. Why should the company bear extra expenses from its own pocket for someone else's mistake?
Regards
From India, Mumbai
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I understand your situation. The company makes policies for certain reasons. Once we step into the owner's shoes, we realize how difficult it is for him to make such decisions. He did not start the company easily, and now with over 10,000 laborers and 500+ professional staff, consider the additional pressures he faces that we may not even be aware of.
Employees are working and getting paid for their work, which is agreed upon. Neither the employee nor the employer is engaged in charity. If someone breaks the rules, they should be punished. Physical punishment is not something any employer should consider; therefore, monetary punishment is well defined.
In my opinion, it is not unethical for the MD or the management to terminate an individual and deduct a penalty from their salary. Why should the company bear extra expenses from its own pocket for someone else's mistake?
Regards
From India, Mumbai
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Hi George,
I am sure every company and every employee would have a right to their own views. However, my personal opinion is that if the employee meets his/her deadlines, then you need not bother. You may want to read the book "Maverick" by Ricardo Semler. It is a good read to know how employees perform if they are not under too many rules and regulations.
Cheers! Rohan
From India, Bangalore
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I am sure every company and every employee would have a right to their own views. However, my personal opinion is that if the employee meets his/her deadlines, then you need not bother. You may want to read the book "Maverick" by Ricardo Semler. It is a good read to know how employees perform if they are not under too many rules and regulations.
Cheers! Rohan
From India, Bangalore
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Ms. George,
It seems that your organization has a decade-old book of Rules & Regulations. I heard from a famous speaker, "The more laws, the more corrupt the nation." Imposing fines for non-observable acts will generate more disrespect and less ownership towards the organization. Any form of indiscipline with money involved as a fine or method to correct them will lead nowhere.
"It's hard to be funny when you have to be clean." - Mae West
Simmy Saini | Google | India.
From India, Mumbai
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It seems that your organization has a decade-old book of Rules & Regulations. I heard from a famous speaker, "The more laws, the more corrupt the nation." Imposing fines for non-observable acts will generate more disrespect and less ownership towards the organization. Any form of indiscipline with money involved as a fine or method to correct them will lead nowhere.
"It's hard to be funny when you have to be clean." - Mae West
Simmy Saini | Google | India.
From India, Mumbai
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There could be more solutions you can try:
Collect everyone's mobile before entering the office. If they don't have access to floors, put a scanner at the gate of the floor so that only authorized persons can enter.
Keep an office boy who will collect all the papers from everyone's desk and process them for recycling. Depending on the size of the company, there must be multiple office boys.
Ask the office boy to switch off the lights after everyone leaves.
Hope this helps.
From India, New Delhi
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Collect everyone's mobile before entering the office. If they don't have access to floors, put a scanner at the gate of the floor so that only authorized persons can enter.
Keep an office boy who will collect all the papers from everyone's desk and process them for recycling. Depending on the size of the company, there must be multiple office boys.
Ask the office boy to switch off the lights after everyone leaves.
Hope this helps.
From India, New Delhi
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Hello, Ms. George,
More than looking at the whole thing as an ethical issue, suggest figuring out the root causes for such rules.
If you were the Chairman, wouldn't you be worried about the high attrition rates and also the 'sense' that the employees aren't feeling too happy with such rules? I am sure you would—after all, it won't take anyone to come up to you and say 'I AM NOT HAPPY'.
NOW PLEASE DON'T THINK I AM SUPPORTING OR JUSTIFYING YOUR CHAIRMAN OR HIS ACTIONS.
For every rule in any company, there WILL be certain reasons—since you joined only 2 years ago, you may not have the clear picture—except through other employees. So obviously, there must have been some reasons why such rules were put into place. Try to talk to the Chairman—when his mood is suitable—and get to know the REASONS.
It's also human nature to continue with a course of action way beyond its utility. Our government rules are the best example—how many laws are still in place despite the country moving forward much beyond the time when such rules/laws were formulated? Maybe many of what People Power mentioned in this Thread COULD have happened, and the Company paid very dearly in the past?
Once you are clear about the EXACT reasons for these rules, think and come up with alternate solutions. Many top management persons will not entertain any criticism WITHOUT alternate solutions.
In general too, it's always wise to criticize/point out WITH SOME ALTERNATIVE also being mentioned along with the problem and the existing practice/steps—whether in a job (at every level in the hierarchy) or even at the personal level.
And coming to your leaving this job, please note that every job WILL have its own set of situations to be handled. Running away from them would land you nowhere in the long run.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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More than looking at the whole thing as an ethical issue, suggest figuring out the root causes for such rules.
If you were the Chairman, wouldn't you be worried about the high attrition rates and also the 'sense' that the employees aren't feeling too happy with such rules? I am sure you would—after all, it won't take anyone to come up to you and say 'I AM NOT HAPPY'.
NOW PLEASE DON'T THINK I AM SUPPORTING OR JUSTIFYING YOUR CHAIRMAN OR HIS ACTIONS.
For every rule in any company, there WILL be certain reasons—since you joined only 2 years ago, you may not have the clear picture—except through other employees. So obviously, there must have been some reasons why such rules were put into place. Try to talk to the Chairman—when his mood is suitable—and get to know the REASONS.
It's also human nature to continue with a course of action way beyond its utility. Our government rules are the best example—how many laws are still in place despite the country moving forward much beyond the time when such rules/laws were formulated? Maybe many of what People Power mentioned in this Thread COULD have happened, and the Company paid very dearly in the past?
Once you are clear about the EXACT reasons for these rules, think and come up with alternate solutions. Many top management persons will not entertain any criticism WITHOUT alternate solutions.
In general too, it's always wise to criticize/point out WITH SOME ALTERNATIVE also being mentioned along with the problem and the existing practice/steps—whether in a job (at every level in the hierarchy) or even at the personal level.
And coming to your leaving this job, please note that every job WILL have its own set of situations to be handled. Running away from them would land you nowhere in the long run.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Hi,
Maybe the punishment could be humorous. Instead of behaving like an autocrat, one could make it funny and yet send the message. For example, you can keep a printout on his table the next day like - "Oops, I forgot to clear my table the previous day :((" Some companies even give some kind of token the next day, let's say a funny cap on your head. In all this, just make sure that it shouldn't be insulting or humiliating to the employee. If you want to make it very serious, HR can include some percentage weightage on discipline during appraisals.
From India, Delhi
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Maybe the punishment could be humorous. Instead of behaving like an autocrat, one could make it funny and yet send the message. For example, you can keep a printout on his table the next day like - "Oops, I forgot to clear my table the previous day :((" Some companies even give some kind of token the next day, let's say a funny cap on your head. In all this, just make sure that it shouldn't be insulting or humiliating to the employee. If you want to make it very serious, HR can include some percentage weightage on discipline during appraisals.
From India, Delhi
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What I meant to say, Ms. George— in a nutshell— was this:
1) This COULD be your chance to learn how to handle situations that are given up.
2) Focus on the SOLUTION(S) rather than on the PROBLEM. I am sure you WILL come up with some good alternative solutions to handle the concerns of the Management & the employees— what we in HR call 'out-of-the-box' thinking.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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1) This COULD be your chance to learn how to handle situations that are given up.
2) Focus on the SOLUTION(S) rather than on the PROBLEM. I am sure you WILL come up with some good alternative solutions to handle the concerns of the Management & the employees— what we in HR call 'out-of-the-box' thinking.
Rgds,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Ms. George,
There are many ways to address various problems:
- Companies can implement a policy prohibiting mobile phones in the workplace, as many companies do currently, rather than allowing their use and subsequently issuing fines.
- Instead of imposing fines on employees sitting in others' cabins, a memo or warning can be issued to the employee allowing the unauthorized person to sit there. This action not only wastes the employee's own time but also leads to a show cause notice for the visitor (employee), instilling a sense of accountability.
- Each floor of your office should have a visitor log containing employee name, number, purpose of visit, time of visit, and signature. If an employee needs to leave their floor, the reason should be communicated at the entrance and allowed only for valid reasons.
- Turning off lights at the end of working hours should be the responsibility of the administrative staff to help in cost-cutting and operational efficiency.
Disciplinary actions are necessary, but there should be defined limits. If these actions exceed reasonable limits, employees may not understand their significance and purpose, leading to negative reactions, attrition, damage to the company's reputation, decreased job satisfaction, and lack of commitment to responsibilities.
In the provided email exchange, Ms. George discusses implementing a 500 rupees fine for various non-disciplinary actions such as mobile phone disturbances, unauthorized cabin usage, unauthorized floor access, and leaving papers or lights on after office hours. This fine would be deducted from employees' salaries as a salary advance.
Do you believe this practice is ethical? Please share your thoughts.
Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Vijayawada
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There are many ways to address various problems:
- Companies can implement a policy prohibiting mobile phones in the workplace, as many companies do currently, rather than allowing their use and subsequently issuing fines.
- Instead of imposing fines on employees sitting in others' cabins, a memo or warning can be issued to the employee allowing the unauthorized person to sit there. This action not only wastes the employee's own time but also leads to a show cause notice for the visitor (employee), instilling a sense of accountability.
- Each floor of your office should have a visitor log containing employee name, number, purpose of visit, time of visit, and signature. If an employee needs to leave their floor, the reason should be communicated at the entrance and allowed only for valid reasons.
- Turning off lights at the end of working hours should be the responsibility of the administrative staff to help in cost-cutting and operational efficiency.
Disciplinary actions are necessary, but there should be defined limits. If these actions exceed reasonable limits, employees may not understand their significance and purpose, leading to negative reactions, attrition, damage to the company's reputation, decreased job satisfaction, and lack of commitment to responsibilities.
In the provided email exchange, Ms. George discusses implementing a 500 rupees fine for various non-disciplinary actions such as mobile phone disturbances, unauthorized cabin usage, unauthorized floor access, and leaving papers or lights on after office hours. This fine would be deducted from employees' salaries as a salary advance.
Do you believe this practice is ethical? Please share your thoughts.
Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Vijayawada
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Ms. George - Can we try some Gandhigiri? Both for the management and workers. For every Rs. 500/- deducted, the workers can present a bouquet to the plant head. For every time the lights are left in the "ON" position OR every time a mobile rings OR any of the above causes for concern to the management, the plant head can call them in the daily meeting and present each of them with a rose flower in the presence of all personnel. Surely, this will be a positive way of managing things.
From India, Jamnagar
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From India, Jamnagar
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My dear Ms. George,
I hope you benefit from the various opinions and points of view given. My idea behind asking those questions was to enable you to look at the 'problem' from different angles:
Apart from the 'ethical' part, do you think the quantum of the punishment is justified? Should it not be graded on severity and occurrence, rather than a flat hefty amount? Did the novel punishment result in reducing the occurrence of such offenses?
If it has not achieved the desired objective, is there any rationale to continue it in the present form? As rightly pointed out by many, these are just the visible symptoms of a management that is not 'connected' with its people, as much as about employees who have not been sensitized to professional work ethics. You have to look for answers and solutions elsewhere and try several innovative ways of employee engagement to achieve the desired result and more for the organization and its employees.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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I hope you benefit from the various opinions and points of view given. My idea behind asking those questions was to enable you to look at the 'problem' from different angles:
Apart from the 'ethical' part, do you think the quantum of the punishment is justified? Should it not be graded on severity and occurrence, rather than a flat hefty amount? Did the novel punishment result in reducing the occurrence of such offenses?
If it has not achieved the desired objective, is there any rationale to continue it in the present form? As rightly pointed out by many, these are just the visible symptoms of a management that is not 'connected' with its people, as much as about employees who have not been sensitized to professional work ethics. You have to look for answers and solutions elsewhere and try several innovative ways of employee engagement to achieve the desired result and more for the organization and its employees.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Ms. George,
The answer to the question is that a punishment cannot be unethical, according to me. After creating awareness, you can implement the punishment part. We have many such actions that we do not want to take place in society as well as in the company. The only way out is awareness.
Here, you can share the workplace of a good company, making employees understand the pros and cons so that they will carry this information lifelong wherever they go. I think there lies an opportunity for HR professionals to come in.
Regards,
From India, Ulhasnagar
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The answer to the question is that a punishment cannot be unethical, according to me. After creating awareness, you can implement the punishment part. We have many such actions that we do not want to take place in society as well as in the company. The only way out is awareness.
Here, you can share the workplace of a good company, making employees understand the pros and cons so that they will carry this information lifelong wherever they go. I think there lies an opportunity for HR professionals to come in.
Regards,
From India, Ulhasnagar
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Hi All,
I am not against discipline and censure. But I believe that motivation and gentle persuasion are far more superior and humane ways than coercion and punishment.
If it would have been a token fine of Rs 10/- or something, I could have digested it, but a 500 bucks fine?? I am totally aghast and shocked. How can someone think of doing these kinds of things? This is downright unethical and coercive punishment.
We say that companies are just like families. Do we 'fine' 500 bucks from our brothers or daughters for leaving a paper on their desks?
These policies are an indication of the kind of negative attitude the bosses have towards their employees and want to treat them as slaves and exploit them to the hilt. I am sure someone at the top must have suggested this way as the cost-cutting method.
"When the only tool you have is a hammer, then you tend to think of everything as a nail."
Ms. GEORGE - My suggestion to you is: Get your experience, do your best, then try to get a better job. Get away from these kinds of people before you too become cynical and believe that coercion is the best HR policy.
From India, Delhi
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I am not against discipline and censure. But I believe that motivation and gentle persuasion are far more superior and humane ways than coercion and punishment.
If it would have been a token fine of Rs 10/- or something, I could have digested it, but a 500 bucks fine?? I am totally aghast and shocked. How can someone think of doing these kinds of things? This is downright unethical and coercive punishment.
We say that companies are just like families. Do we 'fine' 500 bucks from our brothers or daughters for leaving a paper on their desks?
These policies are an indication of the kind of negative attitude the bosses have towards their employees and want to treat them as slaves and exploit them to the hilt. I am sure someone at the top must have suggested this way as the cost-cutting method.
"When the only tool you have is a hammer, then you tend to think of everything as a nail."
Ms. GEORGE - My suggestion to you is: Get your experience, do your best, then try to get a better job. Get away from these kinds of people before you too become cynical and believe that coercion is the best HR policy.
From India, Delhi
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It's a very good discussion so far. I agree with all; this seems to be really unethical because human capital is an important source for every organization. Keep them motivated so that your attrition rate will decrease in the future.
Regards,
Zonash
From Pakistan, Lahore
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Regards,
Zonash
From Pakistan, Lahore
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I think when office people don't take things seriously and are casual towards work, then management makes decisions. Or maybe the company is already a victim of high salaries and low performance scenario, so there is no harm in this policy.
Also, I have seen employees unnecessarily exaggerate everything to prove that they are always right and management is wrong. Running a company is very difficult, and criticizing management is easy.
From India, Delhi
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Also, I have seen employees unnecessarily exaggerate everything to prove that they are always right and management is wrong. Running a company is very difficult, and criticizing management is easy.
From India, Delhi
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[QUOTE=People Power;1295667]
Ms. George,
Thanks for expressing your situation with us. However, I have a few queries for you:
1. Do the employees have the habit of leaving the lights on?
2. If you keep your mobile in silent mode, how does anyone know? Normally, it is a rule in most companies to keep the mobile in silent mode. In some companies, employees are even asked to submit their mobiles before entering the cabins; they can retrieve them while going back home.
3. How do you access the floors for which you have no access permissions? And moreover, why?
4. Don't you keep your desk clean? In most offices, these things are highly noted. You are lucky that you have been instructed to do so. For people who are not told but are silently noticed, it's the worst case. What do you say?
Ms. George, if you give away your house for rent and strictly instruct the tenants to keep the walls, garden, bathroom clean, and to switch off the verandah light before sleeping, otherwise a fine will be charged. From the very next day, they will follow your instructions as cleanliness is next to godliness. They won't run away or be scared because they have been asked to be clean. The person would be foolish to run away.
I have shared my thoughts with you. There are many worse situations than yours. You are fortunate to be in a well-mannered and disciplined company. Congratulations for that.
Regards,
For heaven's sake, no wonder you have a high attrition rate. These kinds of workplaces sound like a prison, not a 21st-century workplace. I would never submit my mobile to anyone. If this represents the standard workplace in India, then I wouldn't last a day.
Regards,
Bruncha
From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
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Ms. George,
Thanks for expressing your situation with us. However, I have a few queries for you:
1. Do the employees have the habit of leaving the lights on?
2. If you keep your mobile in silent mode, how does anyone know? Normally, it is a rule in most companies to keep the mobile in silent mode. In some companies, employees are even asked to submit their mobiles before entering the cabins; they can retrieve them while going back home.
3. How do you access the floors for which you have no access permissions? And moreover, why?
4. Don't you keep your desk clean? In most offices, these things are highly noted. You are lucky that you have been instructed to do so. For people who are not told but are silently noticed, it's the worst case. What do you say?
Ms. George, if you give away your house for rent and strictly instruct the tenants to keep the walls, garden, bathroom clean, and to switch off the verandah light before sleeping, otherwise a fine will be charged. From the very next day, they will follow your instructions as cleanliness is next to godliness. They won't run away or be scared because they have been asked to be clean. The person would be foolish to run away.
I have shared my thoughts with you. There are many worse situations than yours. You are fortunate to be in a well-mannered and disciplined company. Congratulations for that.
Regards,
For heaven's sake, no wonder you have a high attrition rate. These kinds of workplaces sound like a prison, not a 21st-century workplace. I would never submit my mobile to anyone. If this represents the standard workplace in India, then I wouldn't last a day.
Regards,
Bruncha
From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
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Sorry to say, but I could not read this thread anymore. I wonder whether it is a company or a fine collection community. Collecting $500 for such mistakes will make employees more hateful rather than loving their job. Having rules is not a bad thing, but making the employees bend on their knees and obliging them is way beyond. Sorry, but it sounds like a BPO where I first started my career.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Hello,
This is totally unethical. This will surely lead to employees leaving the organization. Who would continue working when the management keeps these kinds of rules? As said by one of our members, office boys and security guards can check and switch off the lights. I am sure these instructions can be passed to employees in a more beneficial way than deducting an amount. I am sure not even a single person is happy about this office.
1) Employees are not kids, and they know how to keep their desks clean. There's housekeeping too, who can help.
2) Let the company collect the mobile phones of the employees while they enter the office (through security guards).
Tell me one thing, are these rules applied to the management staff too? I am sure this doesn't. Though the management has all rights over the employee on his behavior, etc., in the office. But this is not the way. I totally disagree. I feel an office should be a friendly home or a rules place.
Swapna.
From India, Mumbai
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This is totally unethical. This will surely lead to employees leaving the organization. Who would continue working when the management keeps these kinds of rules? As said by one of our members, office boys and security guards can check and switch off the lights. I am sure these instructions can be passed to employees in a more beneficial way than deducting an amount. I am sure not even a single person is happy about this office.
1) Employees are not kids, and they know how to keep their desks clean. There's housekeeping too, who can help.
2) Let the company collect the mobile phones of the employees while they enter the office (through security guards).
Tell me one thing, are these rules applied to the management staff too? I am sure this doesn't. Though the management has all rights over the employee on his behavior, etc., in the office. But this is not the way. I totally disagree. I feel an office should be a friendly home or a rules place.
Swapna.
From India, Mumbai
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Dear friend,
Let's not debate whether it is ethical or unethical. What your management says is to be a disciplined person, that is all.
You mentioned you had joined a couple of years back. No management, person, or even a teacher at school goes for such a harsh punishment at the first instance. Maybe your management would have sent a circular, communicated earlier to your staff to be self-disciplined. Despite their efforts, employees may have been careless in adhering to the system. Then this kind of punishment would have come into force.
As our former President Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam said, in Singapore and other countries if you throw a chocolate wrapper, within no time there would be a policeman in front of you to collect a fine. The same person, when in India, might spit in elevators, throw rubbish on the road, or even urinate on the street corner; because there are no strict rules here and people behave as per their convenience.
In foreign countries, people follow the rules and systems without feeling pressured. How many people wear helmets (though it is for their safety); when fines are imposed, people start wearing helmets not just for their own benefit, but with the fear of losing money.
Imagine if some foreign visitors come for business dealings with your company and tour your office. If papers are scattered and things are not in order, what would they feel? Therefore, there is nothing wrong with being disciplined and clean.
Secondly, in my office, many people use cell phones during work hours, wasting time talking to friends and family. Some employees visit others' workstations and chat, wasting their time and others' time as well. If these behaviors persist, where is the productivity? I personally call them out and warn them, and if they do not change, I ensure it is addressed during performance reviews or at the time of increments (again, it affects their monetary benefits).
When we visit a vegetable shop to buy 'ladies finger,' don't we break the tips and ensure we buy only tender ones? For paying some 10 or 15 rupees, we expect quality; what is wrong with expecting quality from people when the management pays you some 10-15 thousand rupees?
If you observe the repercussions of this system, as our friends mentioned earlier, there might be some attrition. However, there would be attrition regardless. If you are not convinced or unable to convince your colleagues, you always have the choice of finding a job more to your liking. Even if you move to another organization, there might be different issues that you perceive as worse than in the previous organization. How long can you keep changing jobs? Just think.
V. Balaji
From India, Madras
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Let's not debate whether it is ethical or unethical. What your management says is to be a disciplined person, that is all.
You mentioned you had joined a couple of years back. No management, person, or even a teacher at school goes for such a harsh punishment at the first instance. Maybe your management would have sent a circular, communicated earlier to your staff to be self-disciplined. Despite their efforts, employees may have been careless in adhering to the system. Then this kind of punishment would have come into force.
As our former President Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam said, in Singapore and other countries if you throw a chocolate wrapper, within no time there would be a policeman in front of you to collect a fine. The same person, when in India, might spit in elevators, throw rubbish on the road, or even urinate on the street corner; because there are no strict rules here and people behave as per their convenience.
In foreign countries, people follow the rules and systems without feeling pressured. How many people wear helmets (though it is for their safety); when fines are imposed, people start wearing helmets not just for their own benefit, but with the fear of losing money.
Imagine if some foreign visitors come for business dealings with your company and tour your office. If papers are scattered and things are not in order, what would they feel? Therefore, there is nothing wrong with being disciplined and clean.
Secondly, in my office, many people use cell phones during work hours, wasting time talking to friends and family. Some employees visit others' workstations and chat, wasting their time and others' time as well. If these behaviors persist, where is the productivity? I personally call them out and warn them, and if they do not change, I ensure it is addressed during performance reviews or at the time of increments (again, it affects their monetary benefits).
When we visit a vegetable shop to buy 'ladies finger,' don't we break the tips and ensure we buy only tender ones? For paying some 10 or 15 rupees, we expect quality; what is wrong with expecting quality from people when the management pays you some 10-15 thousand rupees?
If you observe the repercussions of this system, as our friends mentioned earlier, there might be some attrition. However, there would be attrition regardless. If you are not convinced or unable to convince your colleagues, you always have the choice of finding a job more to your liking. Even if you move to another organization, there might be different issues that you perceive as worse than in the previous organization. How long can you keep changing jobs? Just think.
V. Balaji
From India, Madras
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Ms.Geogre, This is purely ridicules & unethical I could not be agree with this kind of punishment you should have to protest for the same. Kamlesh Barmeda
From India, Ahmadabad
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From India, Ahmadabad
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Dear Ms. George,
The issue of ethical or unethical regulation or procedure depends on the agreement/terms & conditions of employment entered into by the employee with the management, as accepted by him/her at the time of joining or even later if amendments to the regulations are made.
Therefore, the imposition of a monetary fine would be ethical if the employee has already accepted the employer's agreement/terms & conditions. If there is no such clause regarding fines or if it has not been communicated by the management, employees can address the issue with the management accordingly.
Hence, it is advised to review the terms & conditions of your employment first, as you may have accepted these conditions upon employment or even later during your employment.
Regards,
PS Dhingra
Vigilance & Transformation Management Consultant
Dhingra Group of Management & Educational Consultants
New Delhi
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Dear All,
In our company, employees are fined 500 rupees for each non-disciplinary deed, such as a mobile ringing during office hours, sitting in another's cabin, accessing floors they are not allowed on, leaving papers on the table after office hours, forgetting papers on the table after office hours, and forgetting to switch off the light. This amount will be deducted from the salary as a salary advance.
Do you think this practice is ethical? Please share your views.
Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Delhi
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The issue of ethical or unethical regulation or procedure depends on the agreement/terms & conditions of employment entered into by the employee with the management, as accepted by him/her at the time of joining or even later if amendments to the regulations are made.
Therefore, the imposition of a monetary fine would be ethical if the employee has already accepted the employer's agreement/terms & conditions. If there is no such clause regarding fines or if it has not been communicated by the management, employees can address the issue with the management accordingly.
Hence, it is advised to review the terms & conditions of your employment first, as you may have accepted these conditions upon employment or even later during your employment.
Regards,
PS Dhingra
Vigilance & Transformation Management Consultant
Dhingra Group of Management & Educational Consultants
New Delhi
---
Dear All,
In our company, employees are fined 500 rupees for each non-disciplinary deed, such as a mobile ringing during office hours, sitting in another's cabin, accessing floors they are not allowed on, leaving papers on the table after office hours, forgetting papers on the table after office hours, and forgetting to switch off the light. This amount will be deducted from the salary as a salary advance.
Do you think this practice is ethical? Please share your views.
Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Delhi
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Dear Ms. George,
The problem stated by you is a typical issue in Indian companies. Instead of running off, I suggest viewing it as a challenge. I recommend implementing creative measures to boost morale within the organization. Discuss these measures with the owner positively. Explain that due to the high attrition rate, it is your moral responsibility to address it. By taking this approach, you may restore trust and faith in your capabilities and gradually steer the organization in the right direction.
You could propose awards for the best employee in terms of performance, adherence to norms and protocols, regularity, and punctuality. Additionally, consider organizing programs for soft skills development, motivation, and leadership skills for the employees.
Convince management that you are planning these initiatives to ensure that individuals comply with the organization's norms, protocols, and rules. By doing so, management will likely appreciate your efforts to help restore the organization's health and foster a positive environment.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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The problem stated by you is a typical issue in Indian companies. Instead of running off, I suggest viewing it as a challenge. I recommend implementing creative measures to boost morale within the organization. Discuss these measures with the owner positively. Explain that due to the high attrition rate, it is your moral responsibility to address it. By taking this approach, you may restore trust and faith in your capabilities and gradually steer the organization in the right direction.
You could propose awards for the best employee in terms of performance, adherence to norms and protocols, regularity, and punctuality. Additionally, consider organizing programs for soft skills development, motivation, and leadership skills for the employees.
Convince management that you are planning these initiatives to ensure that individuals comply with the organization's norms, protocols, and rules. By doing so, management will likely appreciate your efforts to help restore the organization's health and foster a positive environment.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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Thank you for sharing your problem with us. From modern HR practices, it is totally wrong to mistreat employees. In our country, no professional person will stay for a month with an organization having such a policy. Is there any labor union or collective agreement in your company? Such issues can be easily solved through a union. Otherwise, it will be difficult for you to convince the owner(s). Ultimately, you have to find another job or resign yourself. Good luck.
Welday, Ethiopia.
From Ethiopia, Addis Abeba
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Welday, Ethiopia.
From Ethiopia, Addis Abeba
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Dear George,
After reading your message, I feel your management wants to impose discipline in the company. This could be achieved in other ways as well, like rewarding the person for keeping the workplace clean, switching off the lights, and keeping the table clean. The reward need not be monetary; it could be giving a bouquet, displaying the person's name on the notice board, etc. This way, the employees would be motivated to keep their workplace clean.
Regards,
Raghav
From India, Bangalore
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After reading your message, I feel your management wants to impose discipline in the company. This could be achieved in other ways as well, like rewarding the person for keeping the workplace clean, switching off the lights, and keeping the table clean. The reward need not be monetary; it could be giving a bouquet, displaying the person's name on the notice board, etc. This way, the employees would be motivated to keep their workplace clean.
Regards,
Raghav
From India, Bangalore
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This is sheer stupidity.. I feel like your company doesn’t have managers they have dictators.. How are you tolerating all this..???
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Hi Ms. George,
I can imagine your feelings while dealing with your people. The method of imposing monetary penalties for matters related to discipline cannot be justified. However, in my view, a few behavioral training sessions will surely bring about a change in the habits of people. You can also suggest creating Single Points of Contact (SPOCs) in each department who can assist HR in maintaining discipline in the organization.
Furthermore, in my view, your organization seems to be more focused on Personnel Management rather than Human Resources Management. As an HR professional, you need to upgrade yourself as a change agent.
All the best,
From India, Jaipur
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I can imagine your feelings while dealing with your people. The method of imposing monetary penalties for matters related to discipline cannot be justified. However, in my view, a few behavioral training sessions will surely bring about a change in the habits of people. You can also suggest creating Single Points of Contact (SPOCs) in each department who can assist HR in maintaining discipline in the organization.
Furthermore, in my view, your organization seems to be more focused on Personnel Management rather than Human Resources Management. As an HR professional, you need to upgrade yourself as a change agent.
All the best,
From India, Jaipur
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Dear Ms. George,
This is completely unethical, and we can say the management is not keen on enhancing the productivity of employees. Managing people is completely responsible for the management as well as the HR Dept's responsibility, and that should be a mutual benefit too.
1. As for the mobile ringing issue, if it affects the required productivity (overall objective) or is affecting the co-workers' productivity, you have to take necessary action for this. If the management just wants to punish the employees, they can fine the guilty. If the management really wants to solve the issue and expects better productivity from the employees, you (management) have to educate the employees with the proper guidance and show them in a smarter way to explain that it would increase their productivity.
2. The other issues like leaving papers and forgetting papers on the table are not a big issue provided the employees are working within a professional culture. If the employees are not working within a professional culture, ultimately, that would be the HR Dept's blunder.
3. Deducting salary is in no way ethical. Whatever mistakes employees make, if they are not following the company's policy, straight away terminate them or educate them with non-monetary terms. Don't punish them by deducting salary and such. If the employer does so, employees won't be mentally fit to work for the company. The HR Dept is completely responsible for communicating the company's policies to new employees. It is not easy to change the new employee while other employees were following these practices. Changes can be made gradually.
I have made some assumptions. If you provide the exact facts, I will try my best to sort out your issue.
From India, Madras
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This is completely unethical, and we can say the management is not keen on enhancing the productivity of employees. Managing people is completely responsible for the management as well as the HR Dept's responsibility, and that should be a mutual benefit too.
1. As for the mobile ringing issue, if it affects the required productivity (overall objective) or is affecting the co-workers' productivity, you have to take necessary action for this. If the management just wants to punish the employees, they can fine the guilty. If the management really wants to solve the issue and expects better productivity from the employees, you (management) have to educate the employees with the proper guidance and show them in a smarter way to explain that it would increase their productivity.
2. The other issues like leaving papers and forgetting papers on the table are not a big issue provided the employees are working within a professional culture. If the employees are not working within a professional culture, ultimately, that would be the HR Dept's blunder.
3. Deducting salary is in no way ethical. Whatever mistakes employees make, if they are not following the company's policy, straight away terminate them or educate them with non-monetary terms. Don't punish them by deducting salary and such. If the employer does so, employees won't be mentally fit to work for the company. The HR Dept is completely responsible for communicating the company's policies to new employees. It is not easy to change the new employee while other employees were following these practices. Changes can be made gradually.
I have made some assumptions. If you provide the exact facts, I will try my best to sort out your issue.
From India, Madras
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According to me, this is completely unethical. For such kind of a small issue, an employer cannot deduct five hundred from anyone's salary. Just suppose that a peon forgets to switch off the fan or lights; then deducting this amount from a poor's salary is really pathetic. You must raise your voice against it.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Dear Ms. George,
In this situation, I believe your management can take corrective action rather than resorting to punishment. Offering a small incentive to employees who do not engage in activities such as using their mobile phones during office hours, entering others' cabins without permission, accessing restricted areas, leaving papers on tables after office hours, and forgetting to switch off lights could be beneficial. This approach would not only motivate your employees but also contribute to better employee relations.
Whether the incentive is financial or non-financial, it can enhance the company's image among employees. They may perceive that the company values increasing their salaries rather than implementing deductions.
Thank you.
From Sri Lanka
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In this situation, I believe your management can take corrective action rather than resorting to punishment. Offering a small incentive to employees who do not engage in activities such as using their mobile phones during office hours, entering others' cabins without permission, accessing restricted areas, leaving papers on tables after office hours, and forgetting to switch off lights could be beneficial. This approach would not only motivate your employees but also contribute to better employee relations.
Whether the incentive is financial or non-financial, it can enhance the company's image among employees. They may perceive that the company values increasing their salaries rather than implementing deductions.
Thank you.
From Sri Lanka
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I would agree with V. Balaji's views. Basically, he has mentioned what I mentioned earlier, but in a simpler way, I should say. I would suggest that before jumping to conclusions or making judgments based on everyone's views, Ms. George should first look at the issue from different perspectives.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear George,
In today's high-competition environment, we have to adhere to the company's secrecy policy. Leaving papers on the table may expose very confidential data. Turning off the light should become a habit, and this can be achieved either through self-discipline or by enforcing rules. If employees maintain self-discipline, there will be no need for rules. Rules are established based on past experiences. I would also like to mention that liberty is like elastic - the more you stretch it, the more it expands, but eventually, it loses its characteristics.
Managing over 10,000 employees is no easy task, especially when self-discipline is lacking in a group setting. The military serves as an excellent example of strict adherence to rules, highlighting the necessity of discipline in an organization. Rules are implemented to create a conducive work environment; otherwise, chaos akin to a jungle would prevail.
All employees must adhere to the rules diligently. Taking the example of traffic regulations, without penalties for violations, accidents would occur frequently. The fear of financial loss ensures compliance with traffic laws.
Thanks for the replies. I agree with Capable. We are facing a high attrition rate, and currently, my focus is primarily on recruitment. Unfortunately, none of our employees seem content. Our organization is substantial, with over 10,000 laborers and 500+ professional staff, leading to a high turnover rate among the staff. Despite my attempts to address these issues with our chairman as a member of management, the outcome was unfavorable. He accused me of going against company policies.
As mentioned by Mr. Riyaz, our employees harbor a negative attitude towards management, yet they remain silent due to the fear of immediate termination. While I feel demotivated, as an HR professional, I must stay positive. With only two years of experience, all within this company, I find myself questioning the authenticity of my HR role. Should I continue my career with this company?
Best,
Ms. George
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
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In today's high-competition environment, we have to adhere to the company's secrecy policy. Leaving papers on the table may expose very confidential data. Turning off the light should become a habit, and this can be achieved either through self-discipline or by enforcing rules. If employees maintain self-discipline, there will be no need for rules. Rules are established based on past experiences. I would also like to mention that liberty is like elastic - the more you stretch it, the more it expands, but eventually, it loses its characteristics.
Managing over 10,000 employees is no easy task, especially when self-discipline is lacking in a group setting. The military serves as an excellent example of strict adherence to rules, highlighting the necessity of discipline in an organization. Rules are implemented to create a conducive work environment; otherwise, chaos akin to a jungle would prevail.
All employees must adhere to the rules diligently. Taking the example of traffic regulations, without penalties for violations, accidents would occur frequently. The fear of financial loss ensures compliance with traffic laws.
Thanks for the replies. I agree with Capable. We are facing a high attrition rate, and currently, my focus is primarily on recruitment. Unfortunately, none of our employees seem content. Our organization is substantial, with over 10,000 laborers and 500+ professional staff, leading to a high turnover rate among the staff. Despite my attempts to address these issues with our chairman as a member of management, the outcome was unfavorable. He accused me of going against company policies.
As mentioned by Mr. Riyaz, our employees harbor a negative attitude towards management, yet they remain silent due to the fear of immediate termination. While I feel demotivated, as an HR professional, I must stay positive. With only two years of experience, all within this company, I find myself questioning the authenticity of my HR role. Should I continue my career with this company?
Best,
Ms. George
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
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Dear Friend , If you are at manager position what you have done. To control 10 people is very difficult.and if u want to control 10000+ then think
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
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From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
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Dear Ms. George,
Don't be frustrated. You will be caught between management and employees most of the time, and it is a thankless job. But a few tips may help you.
1. In your pay packet, try to introduce an earning head for Work Area Upkeep and Maintenance and inform all employees that they will not earn this if any of the conditions mentioned by you are not fulfilled (instead of punishing them for each misconduct).
2. If mobile phones are banned at the security point itself, why will mobile phones ring inside the office? You need to ensure that you have a good telephone/intercom network inside the office with a paging system (public address system to inform employees about a call when they are not at the work spot).
3. But I observe that each point that you have mentioned has some value:
a. Not switching off lights leads to wastage of energy and additional electricity charges that do not add value.
b. Moving to a different floor encourages chatting, which affects not only the concerned employee but also the person with whom they are chatting.
c. Leaving papers on the desk can lead to the leaking of confidential information.
You can also try to introduce 5S practices (Seiri, Seiton, Seiso, Seiketsu, and Shitsuke) to keep the workplace clean. Conduct audits, tabulate scores, announce scores on notice boards, introduce a banner indicating the best work station, best department, etc., and give away awards to employees (positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement).
When you reward employees for maintaining and punish employees (work area incentive cut) for misconduct, you will find a balance, and your attrition rate will decrease drastically.
ALL THE VERY BEST!!!
M.V. KANNAN
From India, Madras
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Don't be frustrated. You will be caught between management and employees most of the time, and it is a thankless job. But a few tips may help you.
1. In your pay packet, try to introduce an earning head for Work Area Upkeep and Maintenance and inform all employees that they will not earn this if any of the conditions mentioned by you are not fulfilled (instead of punishing them for each misconduct).
2. If mobile phones are banned at the security point itself, why will mobile phones ring inside the office? You need to ensure that you have a good telephone/intercom network inside the office with a paging system (public address system to inform employees about a call when they are not at the work spot).
3. But I observe that each point that you have mentioned has some value:
a. Not switching off lights leads to wastage of energy and additional electricity charges that do not add value.
b. Moving to a different floor encourages chatting, which affects not only the concerned employee but also the person with whom they are chatting.
c. Leaving papers on the desk can lead to the leaking of confidential information.
You can also try to introduce 5S practices (Seiri, Seiton, Seiso, Seiketsu, and Shitsuke) to keep the workplace clean. Conduct audits, tabulate scores, announce scores on notice boards, introduce a banner indicating the best work station, best department, etc., and give away awards to employees (positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement).
When you reward employees for maintaining and punish employees (work area incentive cut) for misconduct, you will find a balance, and your attrition rate will decrease drastically.
ALL THE VERY BEST!!!
M.V. KANNAN
From India, Madras
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It is easier to resolve such issues from a process perspective rather than from a people perspective. As someone else mentioned, look at the processes involved and make sure that they are well-constructed and there is no reason for these behaviors. Include checklists so that it becomes a habit to check if lights are on, for example. Ask the people involved to write the process - they will feel included and in charge of their work. Publish these processes and name the Process Owners. You will probably find that penalties will not be needed. Also, analyze the reasons for people's behavior. Maybe some of it makes sense and some "rules" need to be changed. Good luck!
From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
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From United Arab Emirates, Dubai
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Hi George,
It's really very hard to say about ethics; most of the time, it's a matter of perception. However, since you are very fresh in the industry, I suggest you should be positive. Most of the time, when you walk up to a person and directly speak up against a policy, you will not be taken in a positive sense. I suggest you try to find out when and how this particular policy came into effect. What was the situation before the policy came into force?
Also, you should try to convince the people to reduce the number of misconducts, and you could help them by providing signs on the walls or maybe a screensaver on the PC, etc. You could also try to convince the management about giving a warning letter, then a show-cause notice, and after these two, if a person still continues these acts, you could suggest a fine. I think most people won't do it after the warning letter.
It was very nice to find that being in HR, you have planned to do something about the situation.
Best of luck.
Regards,
A.V.
From India, Mumbai
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It's really very hard to say about ethics; most of the time, it's a matter of perception. However, since you are very fresh in the industry, I suggest you should be positive. Most of the time, when you walk up to a person and directly speak up against a policy, you will not be taken in a positive sense. I suggest you try to find out when and how this particular policy came into effect. What was the situation before the policy came into force?
Also, you should try to convince the people to reduce the number of misconducts, and you could help them by providing signs on the walls or maybe a screensaver on the PC, etc. You could also try to convince the management about giving a warning letter, then a show-cause notice, and after these two, if a person still continues these acts, you could suggest a fine. I think most people won't do it after the warning letter.
It was very nice to find that being in HR, you have planned to do something about the situation.
Best of luck.
Regards,
A.V.
From India, Mumbai
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Dear George,
I can understand the situation you are in. In my opinion, it is never unethical to start something to save your indirect expenses, keep your workplace hassle-free, and make the employees think that it is also a part of their duty not to leave the lights on while leaving, keeping their workplace clean, and so on. We are discussing but at the same time, the punishment can be in other ways like giving less increment during the appraisal period, no promotions, etc.
We can also think otherwise by motivating the employees who are well-mannered and are following all the lines laid by management. Give them proper attention, present them to others during some general trainings or discussions, appraise them better, highlight them as the best employee, best section, or best department.
Keep having discussion sessions with employees to know what they think about it or what they are planning to do next because apart from attrition, it can anytime lead to a dispute.
Regards
From India, Delhi
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I can understand the situation you are in. In my opinion, it is never unethical to start something to save your indirect expenses, keep your workplace hassle-free, and make the employees think that it is also a part of their duty not to leave the lights on while leaving, keeping their workplace clean, and so on. We are discussing but at the same time, the punishment can be in other ways like giving less increment during the appraisal period, no promotions, etc.
We can also think otherwise by motivating the employees who are well-mannered and are following all the lines laid by management. Give them proper attention, present them to others during some general trainings or discussions, appraise them better, highlight them as the best employee, best section, or best department.
Keep having discussion sessions with employees to know what they think about it or what they are planning to do next because apart from attrition, it can anytime lead to a dispute.
Regards
From India, Delhi
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Dear All,
Many thanks for all the wonderful replies, and now I am in a position to view this situation from a different angle.
In our company, employees are very disciplined. Due to this, a 500 rupees fine for anything expected and unexpected, our work atmosphere is one of fear. This is true even in the case of the General Manager. Here, the people who impose fines on employees are office assistant girls who report to the owner. These individuals are not educated. They go and inform about anything and everything to the owner without even considering the reason behind it. The office assistant girls are uneducated.
I understand that the reason behind the fines is to maintain discipline in the company and to protect the company's property. I always try my level best to present these rules and regulations to new joiners in the most polished way. However, once they are in the company and understand the reality, they naturally become demotivated.
Managers here are not the decision-makers; they are also victims of this situation. Consequently, the entire staff harbors a kind of hatred towards the management.
In my opinion, we can impose fines, but not on the first offense. In this company, nobody violates rules intentionally; it happens very rarely. I believe our management should implement this fine system if an employee repeats the same instance three times in a month.
I think that with this approach, we will have a better work environment. There is no proper delegation of decision-making power; only one person makes the decisions by listening to the office assistants.
It is my duty to convince our employees about all these aspects in the most polished way and to reduce the attrition rate.
Thanks & Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Bangalore
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Many thanks for all the wonderful replies, and now I am in a position to view this situation from a different angle.
In our company, employees are very disciplined. Due to this, a 500 rupees fine for anything expected and unexpected, our work atmosphere is one of fear. This is true even in the case of the General Manager. Here, the people who impose fines on employees are office assistant girls who report to the owner. These individuals are not educated. They go and inform about anything and everything to the owner without even considering the reason behind it. The office assistant girls are uneducated.
I understand that the reason behind the fines is to maintain discipline in the company and to protect the company's property. I always try my level best to present these rules and regulations to new joiners in the most polished way. However, once they are in the company and understand the reality, they naturally become demotivated.
Managers here are not the decision-makers; they are also victims of this situation. Consequently, the entire staff harbors a kind of hatred towards the management.
In my opinion, we can impose fines, but not on the first offense. In this company, nobody violates rules intentionally; it happens very rarely. I believe our management should implement this fine system if an employee repeats the same instance three times in a month.
I think that with this approach, we will have a better work environment. There is no proper delegation of decision-making power; only one person makes the decisions by listening to the office assistants.
It is my duty to convince our employees about all these aspects in the most polished way and to reduce the attrition rate.
Thanks & Regards,
Ms. George
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Ms. George,
Thank you for your response and for providing us with more information. I can understand the situation at the company where you work. I am not surprised to learn that almost uneducated girls, designated as office assistants, spy on the employees and pass on information to the owners.
Unfortunately, this is how most companies in the private sector in India operate, and I have been highlighting this issue for some time. The Companies Act in India has very lenient requirements for a company to be incorporated. Many owner-run small businesses manage to register themselves as companies, either Pvt. Ltd. or Public companies. However, many of them continue to run their businesses like petty shop owners, lacking corporate ethics, culture, or mindset.
It is hard to imagine and accept that highly qualified, professional individuals would be able to adapt to the culture and ways of working in such companies for an extended period. It is no surprise that the attrition rate is high in these companies, which unfortunately does not seem to affect the so-called owners.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Thank you for your response and for providing us with more information. I can understand the situation at the company where you work. I am not surprised to learn that almost uneducated girls, designated as office assistants, spy on the employees and pass on information to the owners.
Unfortunately, this is how most companies in the private sector in India operate, and I have been highlighting this issue for some time. The Companies Act in India has very lenient requirements for a company to be incorporated. Many owner-run small businesses manage to register themselves as companies, either Pvt. Ltd. or Public companies. However, many of them continue to run their businesses like petty shop owners, lacking corporate ethics, culture, or mindset.
It is hard to imagine and accept that highly qualified, professional individuals would be able to adapt to the culture and ways of working in such companies for an extended period. It is no surprise that the attrition rate is high in these companies, which unfortunately does not seem to affect the so-called owners.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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• Having rules of discipline and decorum in a organization and expecting employees to follow rules, keep their office presentable, clean, productive etc. is perfectly legal and ethical
• Punishing and penalizing those employees, who are not following rules is also legal and ethical
• Only question to be asked here is whether penalty / punishment given is proportionate to the violations/abuse. (for example for parking vehicle in no parking area you can be fined say upto Rs. 300 only and you can not be put behind bars.)
• I do not feel that, rules imposed are hard or impossible to follow, may be penalty / fine of Rs. 500 is not proportionate to violations. But again some rules are dependant on situation and environment. For example in case a employee is found smoking in a Petrochemical Plant, he can be sacked permanently from the job. Since his irresponsible act of smoking can put his and others life in danger and can also cause damage to assets and property worth crores.
• Such hefty fines could be one of the minor reason for high attrition. The real reasons must be different and needs to be probed.
• It is also important to know how exactly rules and policies are administered and implemented.
From India, Pune
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• Punishing and penalizing those employees, who are not following rules is also legal and ethical
• Only question to be asked here is whether penalty / punishment given is proportionate to the violations/abuse. (for example for parking vehicle in no parking area you can be fined say upto Rs. 300 only and you can not be put behind bars.)
• I do not feel that, rules imposed are hard or impossible to follow, may be penalty / fine of Rs. 500 is not proportionate to violations. But again some rules are dependant on situation and environment. For example in case a employee is found smoking in a Petrochemical Plant, he can be sacked permanently from the job. Since his irresponsible act of smoking can put his and others life in danger and can also cause damage to assets and property worth crores.
• Such hefty fines could be one of the minor reason for high attrition. The real reasons must be different and needs to be probed.
• It is also important to know how exactly rules and policies are administered and implemented.
From India, Pune
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Are you running a business organization or a kindergarten school? Your boss is adopting all ways to keep the morale low. His attitude is a psychiatric case and needs treatment. The employees must be feeling like having a nagging mother-in-law.
Anyway, to the solution:
1. It is a fact that both the employees and your boss do not have many job responsibilities, and both are trying to find faults with each other for the failure of the company.
2. Adopt reward schemes rather than punishment schemes for improving morale and discipline.
3. Tell the employees what to do instead of what not to do.
4. Find ways to keep the boss busy with more important issues to the organization instead of working like a peeping Tom.
5. If the boss is busy with the attitudinal problems of employees, he will end up deeply immersed in that, but no good job can come out of it. He has forgotten that you can buy a man's presence, but not his heart into the job.
From India, New Delhi
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Anyway, to the solution:
1. It is a fact that both the employees and your boss do not have many job responsibilities, and both are trying to find faults with each other for the failure of the company.
2. Adopt reward schemes rather than punishment schemes for improving morale and discipline.
3. Tell the employees what to do instead of what not to do.
4. Find ways to keep the boss busy with more important issues to the organization instead of working like a peeping Tom.
5. If the boss is busy with the attitudinal problems of employees, he will end up deeply immersed in that, but no good job can come out of it. He has forgotten that you can buy a man's presence, but not his heart into the job.
From India, New Delhi
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Dear Mr. George,
A monetary fine is directly associated with an employee's emotions. It can be structured in different stages, for example, starting with a first memo (perhaps three times) before a fine is imposed. Alternatively, you can implement punishments in various ways.
While a monetary fine can be an effective tool, it is important to first ensure that employees understand that the fine is imposed after being given an opportunity by management.
Thank you.
From India, Ahmadabad
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A monetary fine is directly associated with an employee's emotions. It can be structured in different stages, for example, starting with a first memo (perhaps three times) before a fine is imposed. Alternatively, you can implement punishments in various ways.
While a monetary fine can be an effective tool, it is important to first ensure that employees understand that the fine is imposed after being given an opportunity by management.
Thank you.
From India, Ahmadabad
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Dear Ms. George,
I am back again after a long time into this discussion. I carefully read all the debate our able Fraternity could suggest. Thanks a lot for all those who participated in this debate (both, those who voted "for" as well as "against"). It is all an individual's interest how we look at things.
But your Office Assistants would be highly motivated, engaged, satisfied employees in your organization. Your proprietor has grown well up to engaging 10,000+ people with the help of these office assistants. Genius, introduce some percentage of commission to these office assistants for every sale they make from the employees so that the organization runs well. Let us concentrate on earning in this "Punishment business" unless bringing some innovative ideas/business. I wonder, what your GM (I believe even they are being fined if I am not wrong) would remember? His entire working hour would go into managing his mobile phone, remembering to confine to his room, and to put off/turn off the lights during exit.
However, you or others may agree or deny, but have my point, that I am not satisfied with the style of management at your end.
Anyhow, wish your proprietor a very good luck for his further prosperity in the "Punishment Business." I am sure he will never change to softer sides.
From India, Madras
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I am back again after a long time into this discussion. I carefully read all the debate our able Fraternity could suggest. Thanks a lot for all those who participated in this debate (both, those who voted "for" as well as "against"). It is all an individual's interest how we look at things.
But your Office Assistants would be highly motivated, engaged, satisfied employees in your organization. Your proprietor has grown well up to engaging 10,000+ people with the help of these office assistants. Genius, introduce some percentage of commission to these office assistants for every sale they make from the employees so that the organization runs well. Let us concentrate on earning in this "Punishment business" unless bringing some innovative ideas/business. I wonder, what your GM (I believe even they are being fined if I am not wrong) would remember? His entire working hour would go into managing his mobile phone, remembering to confine to his room, and to put off/turn off the lights during exit.
However, you or others may agree or deny, but have my point, that I am not satisfied with the style of management at your end.
Anyhow, wish your proprietor a very good luck for his further prosperity in the "Punishment Business." I am sure he will never change to softer sides.
From India, Madras
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In the big companies that I have worked at, employees' phones did ring. Employees did leave papers on the desk. But deadlines of overseas projects were met. Increments happened. And there was no fine for such petty things. 500 rupee fine... forget about it.
From India, Ahmadabad
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From India, Ahmadabad
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Ms. George,
I find your company's rules very genuine and logical. What's wrong if the company says to maintain silence by keeping phones silent or forbidding employees to sit in others' cabins or go on restricted floors? The habit of leaving papers on the desk is actually a bad one. This could be for maintaining confidentiality, office decorum, and discipline.
Switching the lights off after usage is actually a global motto. What's wrong if you try to save energy? Come on, all this is immature behavior.
Are these rules too difficult for employees to follow? Why are they refusing?
Please note that fines will be imposed only if they do not follow these guidelines.
Your management would have decided after observing that employees are intentionally breaking all the rules and guidelines.
If the nature of your company's business could also be a factor, such as ongoing Research & Development...
You can help your employees understand, but for that, you have to be convinced about it.
Regards,
Rashee
From India, Delhi
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I find your company's rules very genuine and logical. What's wrong if the company says to maintain silence by keeping phones silent or forbidding employees to sit in others' cabins or go on restricted floors? The habit of leaving papers on the desk is actually a bad one. This could be for maintaining confidentiality, office decorum, and discipline.
Switching the lights off after usage is actually a global motto. What's wrong if you try to save energy? Come on, all this is immature behavior.
Are these rules too difficult for employees to follow? Why are they refusing?
Please note that fines will be imposed only if they do not follow these guidelines.
Your management would have decided after observing that employees are intentionally breaking all the rules and guidelines.
If the nature of your company's business could also be a factor, such as ongoing Research & Development...
You can help your employees understand, but for that, you have to be convinced about it.
Regards,
Rashee
From India, Delhi
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