Let me be honest with you all. I am not into HR or Admin. I am an IT professional with 12 years of industry experience.
If you take a look at HR and Admin departments of all major and known IT firms, one thing common among them is that the state of affairs in HR and Admin departments is really bad. We all know what these departments do all day.
If we want to understand the problem, we have to go to its roots. The root cause is the way people are hired for these two departments.
Management people in any organization keep an eye on vacant positions in these two departments. These two departments are filled with people who are directly or indirectly related to the management of the company. These people cannot get jobs elsewhere. I am not talking about VP HR or VP Admin; I am talking about the people who work under them.
Most of the managers of Admin and HR departments are always under pressure to hire the relatives of the management.
All such hired people do not have any fear or responsibility factor there. You request something from them, and they will take ages to get back to you. You send them reminders, and they will ignore them. You open escalations, and they don't care. Believe me, these people are powerful enough to spoil anyone's career. They are in the company to serve people. These people think the opposite; they are in a company to be served first, and other things can be looked at later. You don't require a big techie guy to be in these two departments. I never saw these two department people using any skill that comes from a specialization. VP and Manager levels are exceptions, and I agree with that. These two departments are majorly responsible for the length of time one would like to work in any organization.
Ever wondered why you get bad food in your canteen? There are complaints about the food supplier. But nothing changes!!!!
Let me ask a question to HR folks first. Honestly tell us, when was the last time you took employee feedback? I am yet to meet an HR or Admin professional who has integrity and honesty intact.
Next post is how the hiring is done by these folks for company positions. Admin folks, I have thoughts for you as well. But please rest for some time. The first focus is HR.
Seniors, your thoughts are most welcome. I want to discuss various other issues as well.
Part two has been posted:
https://www.citehr.com/99060-lets-fa...t2-hiring.html
From India, Ghaziabad
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10If you take a look at HR and Admin departments of all major and known IT firms, one thing common among them is that the state of affairs in HR and Admin departments is really bad. We all know what these departments do all day.
If we want to understand the problem, we have to go to its roots. The root cause is the way people are hired for these two departments.
Management people in any organization keep an eye on vacant positions in these two departments. These two departments are filled with people who are directly or indirectly related to the management of the company. These people cannot get jobs elsewhere. I am not talking about VP HR or VP Admin; I am talking about the people who work under them.
Most of the managers of Admin and HR departments are always under pressure to hire the relatives of the management.
All such hired people do not have any fear or responsibility factor there. You request something from them, and they will take ages to get back to you. You send them reminders, and they will ignore them. You open escalations, and they don't care. Believe me, these people are powerful enough to spoil anyone's career. They are in the company to serve people. These people think the opposite; they are in a company to be served first, and other things can be looked at later. You don't require a big techie guy to be in these two departments. I never saw these two department people using any skill that comes from a specialization. VP and Manager levels are exceptions, and I agree with that. These two departments are majorly responsible for the length of time one would like to work in any organization.
Ever wondered why you get bad food in your canteen? There are complaints about the food supplier. But nothing changes!!!!
Let me ask a question to HR folks first. Honestly tell us, when was the last time you took employee feedback? I am yet to meet an HR or Admin professional who has integrity and honesty intact.
Next post is how the hiring is done by these folks for company positions. Admin folks, I have thoughts for you as well. But please rest for some time. The first focus is HR.
Seniors, your thoughts are most welcome. I want to discuss various other issues as well.
Part two has been posted:
https://www.citehr.com/99060-lets-fa...t2-hiring.html
From India, Ghaziabad
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That is true, all HR professionals are corrupt, and they are similar to government servants. In private organizations, they all harass, hurt, and spoil others for their benefit. I have not seen an honest HR person till now.
The HR individuals will not accept this truth; they will write some excuses justifying their existence and bad work.
From India, Pune
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The HR individuals will not accept this truth; they will write some excuses justifying their existence and bad work.
From India, Pune
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I really want to discover human side of HR. Please let us know about your views. Did I ask very difficult questions?
From India, Ghaziabad
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From India, Ghaziabad
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Hi All,
I am sorry to tell you guys, as you may have more experience than me, but let me confirm one thing to you: addressing "All HR" is not advisable. If you are working as an IT professional, who hired you? Who offered you the package? Who negotiated for that? Moreover, who will care if you have any issues or concerns with your peers or superiors? HR stands for Human Resources and is responsible for taking care of all the human beings in an organization, including you. You may approach HR with problems related to facilities, but the HR department must consider all employees and make necessary decisions, taking various factors into account. The key point is not that all HR professionals are negligent. If we were to point out anything in your group, there are a multitude of issues that could be raised for complaint!
Thank you.
From India, Hyderabad
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I am sorry to tell you guys, as you may have more experience than me, but let me confirm one thing to you: addressing "All HR" is not advisable. If you are working as an IT professional, who hired you? Who offered you the package? Who negotiated for that? Moreover, who will care if you have any issues or concerns with your peers or superiors? HR stands for Human Resources and is responsible for taking care of all the human beings in an organization, including you. You may approach HR with problems related to facilities, but the HR department must consider all employees and make necessary decisions, taking various factors into account. The key point is not that all HR professionals are negligent. If we were to point out anything in your group, there are a multitude of issues that could be raised for complaint!
Thank you.
From India, Hyderabad
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I get it from the gurus here. What you fear from answering the general people. A gentleman posted on here that HR is not all bad. The basic question remains there, preachers of truth are liars themselves. HR talks all crap about motivation, ethics, this good, that good. If you look at the actions on the ground, everything seems reverse.
It is apathy that guys post on other posts, are not ready for a healthy discussion on the problems with HR depts. Nobody wants to touch morality issues.
From India, Ghaziabad
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It is apathy that guys post on other posts, are not ready for a healthy discussion on the problems with HR depts. Nobody wants to touch morality issues.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Well, I am also working in HR in a software company. I have only 3 years of experience in this field, and what I have experienced in my company is that when HR doesn't conduct any training sessions, motivational activities, or other required activities for the employees, they complain that HR is not doing enough. However, when we organize such activities, most of the employees don't attend, saying it's very boring.
When HR formulates and implements policies related to business ethics and company rules and regulations, employees are often reluctant to follow them. On the other hand, when HR doesn't implement any rules and regulations, employees complain that they are very confused and in a great mess without proper policies.
When HR doesn't consider resumes/CVs sent by employees of their relatives and friends (due to not meeting the required job standards), they escalate the matter to senior authorities. Even if the person has 12-15 years of experience and is a senior, HR should not be obligated to consider the resumes of their relatives or friends. If HR does consider these resumes and hires these individuals, some people criticize HR for not knowing how to hire the right candidates.
I have one question: if employees themselves want training sessions, other activities, proper policies, or even want to recommend their relatives or friends (whom they know are not up to the job standard), then why do they raise issues or complaints against HR?
From India, Hyderabad
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When HR formulates and implements policies related to business ethics and company rules and regulations, employees are often reluctant to follow them. On the other hand, when HR doesn't implement any rules and regulations, employees complain that they are very confused and in a great mess without proper policies.
When HR doesn't consider resumes/CVs sent by employees of their relatives and friends (due to not meeting the required job standards), they escalate the matter to senior authorities. Even if the person has 12-15 years of experience and is a senior, HR should not be obligated to consider the resumes of their relatives or friends. If HR does consider these resumes and hires these individuals, some people criticize HR for not knowing how to hire the right candidates.
I have one question: if employees themselves want training sessions, other activities, proper policies, or even want to recommend their relatives or friends (whom they know are not up to the job standard), then why do they raise issues or complaints against HR?
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Mr. India_rebel,
I'm completely against you not because I'm an HR person, but as a professional. You cannot judge everything on your own, specifying the department names, as you said, "We all know what these departments do the whole day." Please let us all know what you know.
Regards,
Srilatha
From India, Hyderabad
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I'm completely against you not because I'm an HR person, but as a professional. You cannot judge everything on your own, specifying the department names, as you said, "We all know what these departments do the whole day." Please let us all know what you know.
Regards,
Srilatha
From India, Hyderabad
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Before passing any comments, a person should keep in mind that the world is very vast, and it has thousands of uniquenesses within it. Comments on a group of people should be measured. With your limited experience in a few companies, you can't judge the group. There are many good companies where HR is truly contributing to the MPS and business.
Regards,
Vidhya
From India, Mumbai
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Regards,
Vidhya
From India, Mumbai
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Almost all HR professionals avoid the basic question: When was the last time you took employee feedback?
Do a quick check in your organization to see how many people truly trust you. The results could be eye-opening. Have you helped create an environment where people love to work, or have you created a company that people lament after joining?
From India, Ghaziabad
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Do a quick check in your organization to see how many people truly trust you. The results could be eye-opening. Have you helped create an environment where people love to work, or have you created a company that people lament after joining?
From India, Ghaziabad
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I think you are being unfair to generalize the way that you have here. I personally have had a very bad experience with IT guys, but I don't say that they are all untrustworthy or bad because they have let me down and cost me money. HR often does a very difficult job under very trying circumstances. These circumstances are not always apparent to those on the outside due to confidentiality issues.
Also, these days HR is a little bit of a misnomer. The role has changed and is more about business protection and survival. This is important to most employees. I empathize with your thoughts that no professional HR people are responding to your observations. I am not in HR anymore, but would have thought that there would be a far more vigorous defense raised. Perhaps a few more detailed points might raise the game?
From United Kingdom, Glasgow
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Also, these days HR is a little bit of a misnomer. The role has changed and is more about business protection and survival. This is important to most employees. I empathize with your thoughts that no professional HR people are responding to your observations. I am not in HR anymore, but would have thought that there would be a far more vigorous defense raised. Perhaps a few more detailed points might raise the game?
From United Kingdom, Glasgow
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Dear Indian Rebel,
From your comments, it's clear that the HR department in your organization has certainly bothered you. Obviously, an unsatisfied employee is a major cause of concern for HR. I have something to say as I witnessed something similar during my internship last year.
But sir, before pointing fingers at HR people in your organization, you have to get to the root. Unless there is support from the top management, people in any department, not just HR, are handicapped.
If your organization is only concerned about productivity with little focus on its human resources, that must be coming straight from the CMD or CEO. So, in such a case, you just can't blame HR people.
As the feedback goes, I am not a professional, still a student. But during my Summer Internship, I witnessed a lot of employees like you, and I found the answer straight from the GM HR. He said that unless the organization stresses the 'HUMAN' aspect, nothing much can be done.
Just think about it, sir. As you said that VP and Manager levels are exceptions, when they themselves don't get the support from the top, then what can the lower-level managers do?
If the organization gives utmost importance to its human resources, then obviously the lower managers can't delay the feedback for long.
I end my reply with this simple situation from our daily lives.
What happens when we call the Customer Care of our mobile service provider and lodge our complaints? We just yell at the guy and ask him for justifications, don't we? But the fact remains that he is just a customer care guy, and the problem-solving department is that of the technical people.
Think about it!
Sumit
From India, Bhubaneswar
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From your comments, it's clear that the HR department in your organization has certainly bothered you. Obviously, an unsatisfied employee is a major cause of concern for HR. I have something to say as I witnessed something similar during my internship last year.
But sir, before pointing fingers at HR people in your organization, you have to get to the root. Unless there is support from the top management, people in any department, not just HR, are handicapped.
If your organization is only concerned about productivity with little focus on its human resources, that must be coming straight from the CMD or CEO. So, in such a case, you just can't blame HR people.
As the feedback goes, I am not a professional, still a student. But during my Summer Internship, I witnessed a lot of employees like you, and I found the answer straight from the GM HR. He said that unless the organization stresses the 'HUMAN' aspect, nothing much can be done.
Just think about it, sir. As you said that VP and Manager levels are exceptions, when they themselves don't get the support from the top, then what can the lower-level managers do?
If the organization gives utmost importance to its human resources, then obviously the lower managers can't delay the feedback for long.
I end my reply with this simple situation from our daily lives.
What happens when we call the Customer Care of our mobile service provider and lodge our complaints? We just yell at the guy and ask him for justifications, don't we? But the fact remains that he is just a customer care guy, and the problem-solving department is that of the technical people.
Think about it!
Sumit
From India, Bhubaneswar
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i am in govt. service. i dont have any experience of private company. but my friends and juniors who are in private sector, say like this as india lebel said.
From India, Indore
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From India, Indore
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From the crystal clear opinion posted on the site, it is evident that you are really a genius guy. Though you are from the IT field, you have an ability to cross the boundaries and peep into other areas. This is a good quality. Keep it up.
However, please note that I have been in the field of Human Development for the last 27 years and have changed a number of people 360 degrees.
To me, your venting out is a positive change. At least you could express your feelings. Please note that HR is meant to develop persons like you to their fullest potential.
For that, you will have to understand the purpose of putting these people in the organization. In the British regime, there was no HR. Only Administration was present and they were doing policing/controlling. Now, with the increased literacy level, there is no need to control the people. They are to be guided and facilitated for their personal as well as organizational growth by identifying the training needs scientifically and nurturing them to become partners in decision making.
Most of the complaints you narrated like food quality, satisfaction feedback, etc., are related to development and are not entirely in the hands of HR professionals. If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys. Whether the cook or canteen contractor are really professional is a question.
My request to you is please go to the people about whom you are complaining. Ask them for any help/suggestions and if they ask for it, provide them. They are the persons who really need support from the top, which seems to be missing in your organization. If you join them, you together can change the picture. Let me caution you here, it is a very difficult task because they will doubt your intention at the first instance. "The person who was complaining for many days, how come he has come to us for extending help" will be their reaction. Never mind, if you genuinely intend to make a positive change, be confident, your every effort will pay you enormously.
HR AUTOMAG
Pune
From India, Pune
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However, please note that I have been in the field of Human Development for the last 27 years and have changed a number of people 360 degrees.
To me, your venting out is a positive change. At least you could express your feelings. Please note that HR is meant to develop persons like you to their fullest potential.
For that, you will have to understand the purpose of putting these people in the organization. In the British regime, there was no HR. Only Administration was present and they were doing policing/controlling. Now, with the increased literacy level, there is no need to control the people. They are to be guided and facilitated for their personal as well as organizational growth by identifying the training needs scientifically and nurturing them to become partners in decision making.
Most of the complaints you narrated like food quality, satisfaction feedback, etc., are related to development and are not entirely in the hands of HR professionals. If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys. Whether the cook or canteen contractor are really professional is a question.
My request to you is please go to the people about whom you are complaining. Ask them for any help/suggestions and if they ask for it, provide them. They are the persons who really need support from the top, which seems to be missing in your organization. If you join them, you together can change the picture. Let me caution you here, it is a very difficult task because they will doubt your intention at the first instance. "The person who was complaining for many days, how come he has come to us for extending help" will be their reaction. Never mind, if you genuinely intend to make a positive change, be confident, your every effort will pay you enormously.
HR AUTOMAG
Pune
From India, Pune
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please do not forget to intimate me, in case you have taken first step towards your journey to success.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Dear Mr. India_rebel,
I am a Senior HR professional with almost 25+ years of experience, both in the Armed Forces and recently in the Private Sector.
Let me clarify a wee bit.
HR people are very powerful individuals due to the responsibility of the whole organization on their shoulders. Any wrong act of theirs can have a larger fallout compared to an IT professional, whose actions may not have grave consequences beyond their sphere of operation.
Hence, hiring an HR person purely on a reference basis can be disastrous for that organization.
In fact, due to the size of the HR department, not many inefficient people can be hidden, unlike the software development department, where due to the sheer size of intake, all undeserving and inefficient inductees can be hidden and may even go unnoticed for a fairly long period.
In the case of an HR executive, however junior, their actions will be noticed sooner rather than later.
The HR role is all-encompassing and limitless, affecting all other departments unlike the roles of other departments, which have laid-down limits, and their performance may not necessarily affect other departments.
Hence, my request is, rather than criticize the whole of HR due to some HR department personnel, kindly sympathize with them, or better still, cooperate with them and see them serve you better!
I have the highest regard for those IT professionals who come and share their thoughts with me or my colleagues, helping us bring about overall improvements in the HR environment of the company.
Yes, it is our responsibility to ensure that all HR executives, irrespective of how they have been inducted, need to fall in line with the ethos and help in improving the HR environment.
Thank you and Warm Regards,
Neeraj
From India, Mumbai
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I am a Senior HR professional with almost 25+ years of experience, both in the Armed Forces and recently in the Private Sector.
Let me clarify a wee bit.
HR people are very powerful individuals due to the responsibility of the whole organization on their shoulders. Any wrong act of theirs can have a larger fallout compared to an IT professional, whose actions may not have grave consequences beyond their sphere of operation.
Hence, hiring an HR person purely on a reference basis can be disastrous for that organization.
In fact, due to the size of the HR department, not many inefficient people can be hidden, unlike the software development department, where due to the sheer size of intake, all undeserving and inefficient inductees can be hidden and may even go unnoticed for a fairly long period.
In the case of an HR executive, however junior, their actions will be noticed sooner rather than later.
The HR role is all-encompassing and limitless, affecting all other departments unlike the roles of other departments, which have laid-down limits, and their performance may not necessarily affect other departments.
Hence, my request is, rather than criticize the whole of HR due to some HR department personnel, kindly sympathize with them, or better still, cooperate with them and see them serve you better!
I have the highest regard for those IT professionals who come and share their thoughts with me or my colleagues, helping us bring about overall improvements in the HR environment of the company.
Yes, it is our responsibility to ensure that all HR executives, irrespective of how they have been inducted, need to fall in line with the ethos and help in improving the HR environment.
Thank you and Warm Regards,
Neeraj
From India, Mumbai
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This forum is not for attacking each other. It is a platform for sharing knowledge, different perspectives, and suggestions on various aspects. I do not think any of us should make statements like 'I am yet to meet an HR or Admin professional who has integrity and honesty intact'. Questioning integrity and honesty in this manner is not in good taste and goes against the objective of this forum. Let us all be careful in the future.
Monila
From India, Calcutta
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Monila
From India, Calcutta
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Here are my responses to all who posted here.
LoveBird143:
The guys on the other side will never understand how it feels when you are treated unfairly.
nrpawan:
Face the reality that is before your eyes. Ignorance is not a bliss. It costs much, believe me.
Shreem:
It requires great courage to believe in yourself and stand tall despite all odds. If you want to do your job honestly, it is you who has to stand tall despite all odds. I never quit the situation. I faced it boldly. I never tolerated any form of injustice. I have been a big reformer so far. I never hesitate to escalate any sort of lazy attitude towards the duties of any HR/Admin guys. I am the first one to blow the whistle. If you say no to any undeserving relative of anyone, you should give them enough reasons. Tell them clearly that you take no responsibility in case these guys do not perform.
Lathasri:
I need not tell you what the guys do all day. Look around; you need not ask anyone. A question for you, when was the last time you took employee feedback on your own? Be honest with us!!! I know the answer, and it is "NEVER."
Vidhya:
Look around the industries in India. HR guys have created more mess than one can sort out. People are really troubled by the attitude of these guys. Citehr is filled with complaints and complaints only. Why? Look inside!!! You have the answer.
Sparky:
There is no easy job in the world. Every job has some issues. It does not mean HR will act like Indian politicians. Absolutely, these folks have created more problems than solutions. I understand your position.
Sumit:
It takes great courage to stand tall and build a reputation. I am glad to see that at least you have thought about the issues. Greedy people look for individuals who can compromise easily and put their values on sale for a price. Unless you are willing, nobody can force you to become an unscrupulous person.
Ashok_pal:
It is not really uncommon to see people getting no salary at the end of the resignation. HR folks create situations beyond one's imagination. These guys create a spiderweb, where weak people get stuck and powerful ones break that web.
HR_AUTOMAG:
I appreciate your views. The industry needs people like you who know the core. I receive 5-7 recruiter calls every day. Believe me, none of them tells the truth. Either they have wrong information or lie about the position. One popular lie is that we have an onsite position.
I have been a big change player. I refuse to be a spectator. If it affects me, I take action, I get involved. I try to sort it out with suggestions. If I feel the suggestions have gone to waste, I open escalations, starting from manager to VP and CEO levels. I have seen two types of situations arise: either the person would mend his ways or leave the job. HR guys come to the office like celebrities and act like no less than kings. I don't have a problem with that. Do whatever you want to do, BUT do your job for which you have been hired. Believe me, if an IT manager starts auditing the HR department's work, half of the guys will lose their jobs.
Surely, I am taking your advice seriously. Please remain connected!!! Change cannot come by being a spectator. We have to get involved. A neutral person always supports injustice.
Niraj.Bhradwaj:
Great respect to your experience. You know what's good and what's not good for the organization. We need more people like you. It's great to see that all lines to you are open for people in your org. Voluntarily connecting to employees always helps. Taking a stand on what's right requires great courage. If you are heading HR anywhere, just keep an eye on your team. I will suggest you to do a test. Give them one paper each and ask them to write the names of the employees in the organization they know. People with lower scores need to open up themselves and meet more people in the organization. It's the basic job of HR to meet the employees. Ask them to meet as many people as they can. It is a great bridge.
Monila:
If bells do not ring in the ears, it's not the fault of the ring. We are on a track of discussing the issues related to HRs and the problems. Surely, we are not attacking anyone. We are not bad people. We are nice people; it's just that we are a little angry over the way we are treated by HR in many organizations. Hope you will understand.
Thanks and warm regards to all. I am not done yet. I will post part 2 very soon, which is about the hiring these HR people do for other teams. I am going to uncover everything I know.
Meanwhile, if you have more to discuss about the issues we are talking here, you are most welcome.
From India, Ghaziabad
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LoveBird143:
The guys on the other side will never understand how it feels when you are treated unfairly.
nrpawan:
Face the reality that is before your eyes. Ignorance is not a bliss. It costs much, believe me.
Shreem:
It requires great courage to believe in yourself and stand tall despite all odds. If you want to do your job honestly, it is you who has to stand tall despite all odds. I never quit the situation. I faced it boldly. I never tolerated any form of injustice. I have been a big reformer so far. I never hesitate to escalate any sort of lazy attitude towards the duties of any HR/Admin guys. I am the first one to blow the whistle. If you say no to any undeserving relative of anyone, you should give them enough reasons. Tell them clearly that you take no responsibility in case these guys do not perform.
Lathasri:
I need not tell you what the guys do all day. Look around; you need not ask anyone. A question for you, when was the last time you took employee feedback on your own? Be honest with us!!! I know the answer, and it is "NEVER."
Vidhya:
Look around the industries in India. HR guys have created more mess than one can sort out. People are really troubled by the attitude of these guys. Citehr is filled with complaints and complaints only. Why? Look inside!!! You have the answer.
Sparky:
There is no easy job in the world. Every job has some issues. It does not mean HR will act like Indian politicians. Absolutely, these folks have created more problems than solutions. I understand your position.
Sumit:
It takes great courage to stand tall and build a reputation. I am glad to see that at least you have thought about the issues. Greedy people look for individuals who can compromise easily and put their values on sale for a price. Unless you are willing, nobody can force you to become an unscrupulous person.
Ashok_pal:
It is not really uncommon to see people getting no salary at the end of the resignation. HR folks create situations beyond one's imagination. These guys create a spiderweb, where weak people get stuck and powerful ones break that web.
HR_AUTOMAG:
I appreciate your views. The industry needs people like you who know the core. I receive 5-7 recruiter calls every day. Believe me, none of them tells the truth. Either they have wrong information or lie about the position. One popular lie is that we have an onsite position.
I have been a big change player. I refuse to be a spectator. If it affects me, I take action, I get involved. I try to sort it out with suggestions. If I feel the suggestions have gone to waste, I open escalations, starting from manager to VP and CEO levels. I have seen two types of situations arise: either the person would mend his ways or leave the job. HR guys come to the office like celebrities and act like no less than kings. I don't have a problem with that. Do whatever you want to do, BUT do your job for which you have been hired. Believe me, if an IT manager starts auditing the HR department's work, half of the guys will lose their jobs.
Surely, I am taking your advice seriously. Please remain connected!!! Change cannot come by being a spectator. We have to get involved. A neutral person always supports injustice.
Niraj.Bhradwaj:
Great respect to your experience. You know what's good and what's not good for the organization. We need more people like you. It's great to see that all lines to you are open for people in your org. Voluntarily connecting to employees always helps. Taking a stand on what's right requires great courage. If you are heading HR anywhere, just keep an eye on your team. I will suggest you to do a test. Give them one paper each and ask them to write the names of the employees in the organization they know. People with lower scores need to open up themselves and meet more people in the organization. It's the basic job of HR to meet the employees. Ask them to meet as many people as they can. It is a great bridge.
Monila:
If bells do not ring in the ears, it's not the fault of the ring. We are on a track of discussing the issues related to HRs and the problems. Surely, we are not attacking anyone. We are not bad people. We are nice people; it's just that we are a little angry over the way we are treated by HR in many organizations. Hope you will understand.
Thanks and warm regards to all. I am not done yet. I will post part 2 very soon, which is about the hiring these HR people do for other teams. I am going to uncover everything I know.
Meanwhile, if you have more to discuss about the issues we are talking here, you are most welcome.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Wow, I have been trying to get a job in HR for the last three months and visit this site many times. I am ex-navy and let me tell you, this finger-pointing takes place everywhere. Every department thinks that others aren't doing anything, and this is dangerous for the organization as a whole. When you point a finger, remember that three are pointing your way too. If you think others aren't doing anything and getting paid, go join them yourself, why whine and complain? So HR points at others and others do the same. I think this forum isn't about pointing fingers; let us find solutions. True HR is responsible for morale, but then when things are going this bad, it is the top brass who are generally to blame. There always are those bad apples in every organization. You just have to get your way around them. So cool down, guys, and stop the slanging match. Remember that you are part of the same team.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Hi all,
Good comments are going on. I have a doubt and a request to all HRs. Can a candidate ask for feedback when he/she is not selected in the interview, for whatever reason? This can help them understand what went wrong and avoid future failures. Of course, HRs have various criteria to consider, but even a simple explanation can greatly benefit their career.
My request to all HRs is, could you please spare a moment from your busy schedules to inform candidates why they were not selected, what was lacking, and what they can improve on? Some candidates may be hesitant to ask for feedback, but HRs can take the initiative to provide feedback on the spot or through a courtesy call. This would be extremely helpful and also a good service.
This is my personal opinion, and I am not sure how many of you agree with it. If I am wrong, please disregard.
Thank you,
Vidya
From India, Mumbai
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Good comments are going on. I have a doubt and a request to all HRs. Can a candidate ask for feedback when he/she is not selected in the interview, for whatever reason? This can help them understand what went wrong and avoid future failures. Of course, HRs have various criteria to consider, but even a simple explanation can greatly benefit their career.
My request to all HRs is, could you please spare a moment from your busy schedules to inform candidates why they were not selected, what was lacking, and what they can improve on? Some candidates may be hesitant to ask for feedback, but HRs can take the initiative to provide feedback on the spot or through a courtesy call. This would be extremely helpful and also a good service.
This is my personal opinion, and I am not sure how many of you agree with it. If I am wrong, please disregard.
Thank you,
Vidya
From India, Mumbai
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Vidya,
HR professionals should not disregard candidates who have invested time and money in attending interviews. It is essential to provide genuine feedback rather than treating the interview process as a mere formality to pass the time. Survival in HR does not require being unethical or engaging in misconduct.
Please let me know if you have any other corrections or suggestions.
From India, Pune
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HR professionals should not disregard candidates who have invested time and money in attending interviews. It is essential to provide genuine feedback rather than treating the interview process as a mere formality to pass the time. Survival in HR does not require being unethical or engaging in misconduct.
Please let me know if you have any other corrections or suggestions.
From India, Pune
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Sumant_jo,
The kind of damage unethical and murky HR does is more. Shutting your eyes is not a solution. These guys are primarily responsible for the system in a company. These fellows are doubly responsible for all the mess in one company. Look at the companies. 90% of the issues are not related to work at all. A responsible HR will sort out the problem, but irresponsible ones will add to the problem. We are angry because we find a poisoned environment in companies due to inaction from the HR side. There is something more than meets the eye.
Vidya,
During my career of 12 years, no HR ever came back to me with feedback.
If we need to overcome problems poured on us by these HR fellows, we have to be a little cautious in dealing with them right from the start of the engagement.
LoveBird,
I see anger and frustration in your views. I understand, you are not alone. We are riding the same boat. We experience and see daily in our office what goes around, how it goes, and see the grieving souls. We are in this state because we never challenged the mighty ones. To some extent, HR has twisted rules to suit them, and all contracts signed are one-sided. The candidate is always a weak entity to go against these HR fellows.
From India, Ghaziabad
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The kind of damage unethical and murky HR does is more. Shutting your eyes is not a solution. These guys are primarily responsible for the system in a company. These fellows are doubly responsible for all the mess in one company. Look at the companies. 90% of the issues are not related to work at all. A responsible HR will sort out the problem, but irresponsible ones will add to the problem. We are angry because we find a poisoned environment in companies due to inaction from the HR side. There is something more than meets the eye.
Vidya,
During my career of 12 years, no HR ever came back to me with feedback.
If we need to overcome problems poured on us by these HR fellows, we have to be a little cautious in dealing with them right from the start of the engagement.
LoveBird,
I see anger and frustration in your views. I understand, you are not alone. We are riding the same boat. We experience and see daily in our office what goes around, how it goes, and see the grieving souls. We are in this state because we never challenged the mighty ones. To some extent, HR has twisted rules to suit them, and all contracts signed are one-sided. The candidate is always a weak entity to go against these HR fellows.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Dear India Rebel,
Even in my small experience of about 2.5 years, out of which only one year in the Private Sector and the rest in the Government Sector, I observed that the emphasis on the Human Factor is greater in the Government Sector, where people may not even have an MBA in HR or any Management qualifications, yet they seem to understand the human factor better than Private Sector HR professionals.
I believe that in the Private Sector, HR practices lack transparency. Recruitment and relieving procedures should be transparent and readily available to any employee upon request. However, most HR personnel become hostile when an employee resigns. Due to the increased workload resulting from the employee's departure, their attitude towards the resigning employee changes, often leading to harassment.
Interestingly, it seems that HR professionals do not implement what they have studied in their MBA or postgraduate programs.
This situation is truly distressing for all employees, leading to a lack of trust in HR. Even outside the company, individuals are hesitant to befriend HR personnel as HR could potentially use their behavior as a reference for performance appraisals.
To address this issue, perhaps there should be a separate department for grievances and vigilance to monitor HR practices. This department should consist of members who are neutral to both HR and employees.
What do you think about this suggestion?
Please let me know your thoughts.
From India, Pune
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Even in my small experience of about 2.5 years, out of which only one year in the Private Sector and the rest in the Government Sector, I observed that the emphasis on the Human Factor is greater in the Government Sector, where people may not even have an MBA in HR or any Management qualifications, yet they seem to understand the human factor better than Private Sector HR professionals.
I believe that in the Private Sector, HR practices lack transparency. Recruitment and relieving procedures should be transparent and readily available to any employee upon request. However, most HR personnel become hostile when an employee resigns. Due to the increased workload resulting from the employee's departure, their attitude towards the resigning employee changes, often leading to harassment.
Interestingly, it seems that HR professionals do not implement what they have studied in their MBA or postgraduate programs.
This situation is truly distressing for all employees, leading to a lack of trust in HR. Even outside the company, individuals are hesitant to befriend HR personnel as HR could potentially use their behavior as a reference for performance appraisals.
To address this issue, perhaps there should be a separate department for grievances and vigilance to monitor HR practices. This department should consist of members who are neutral to both HR and employees.
What do you think about this suggestion?
Please let me know your thoughts.
From India, Pune
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Hi Dear,
I appreciate your efforts in expressing your concerns on this website.
The human mind processes things in the following way:
Listens to views (people's views) → develops a view → gives an opinion → forms a conviction (based on experience) → develops a belief (based on all three) → and finally, develops an attitude towards such belief.
There are no issues as we all go through these stages.
What you have expressed is based on your beliefs.
Let me explain a couple of things to you. The HR Department is generally subfunctioned into:
- Recruitment
- Payroll
- Establishment
- Vigilance & Corporate Affairs
- Employee Relations
All the points you mentioned pertain to Employee Relations primarily. Hence, I hope HR professionals serving in other sub-functions are not under scrutiny, and their effectiveness cannot be questioned based on the anecdotes or experiences shared.
It should be noted that HR also operates under management, and solutions can only be implemented if approved by management. For instance, issues like dissatisfaction in the canteen are common, and providing a universal solution might not be feasible. Efforts should be made to approach the best possible solution.
Questioning the selection process in HR is not exclusive to this department and may also occur in the Development Department or Operations. Job vacancies in HR are significantly fewer compared to Operations. While there may be attempts to influence the selection process, it is the responsibility of HR/recruiters to adhere to office guidelines.
Lastly, I would like to share an example: In a renowned organization, there was an employee who performed exceptionally well at a client site. Upon the client's request for the same person again, the employee insisted that his wife be hired and sent along with him to the site for him to return. Despite his wife not matching his performance level, she was hired and sent with him.
The moral of the story is: One should not form strong beliefs, convictions, or attitudes towards an entire profession based on isolated incidents like this.
Regards,
Tikam - Pune
tikamindia@rediffmail.com
From India, Pune
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I appreciate your efforts in expressing your concerns on this website.
The human mind processes things in the following way:
Listens to views (people's views) → develops a view → gives an opinion → forms a conviction (based on experience) → develops a belief (based on all three) → and finally, develops an attitude towards such belief.
There are no issues as we all go through these stages.
What you have expressed is based on your beliefs.
Let me explain a couple of things to you. The HR Department is generally subfunctioned into:
- Recruitment
- Payroll
- Establishment
- Vigilance & Corporate Affairs
- Employee Relations
All the points you mentioned pertain to Employee Relations primarily. Hence, I hope HR professionals serving in other sub-functions are not under scrutiny, and their effectiveness cannot be questioned based on the anecdotes or experiences shared.
It should be noted that HR also operates under management, and solutions can only be implemented if approved by management. For instance, issues like dissatisfaction in the canteen are common, and providing a universal solution might not be feasible. Efforts should be made to approach the best possible solution.
Questioning the selection process in HR is not exclusive to this department and may also occur in the Development Department or Operations. Job vacancies in HR are significantly fewer compared to Operations. While there may be attempts to influence the selection process, it is the responsibility of HR/recruiters to adhere to office guidelines.
Lastly, I would like to share an example: In a renowned organization, there was an employee who performed exceptionally well at a client site. Upon the client's request for the same person again, the employee insisted that his wife be hired and sent along with him to the site for him to return. Despite his wife not matching his performance level, she was hired and sent with him.
The moral of the story is: One should not form strong beliefs, convictions, or attitudes towards an entire profession based on isolated incidents like this.
Regards,
Tikam - Pune
tikamindia@rediffmail.com
From India, Pune
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Hi Tikam,
With all due respect towards the HR fraternity, we want to trust them, but their actions force us not to trust them anymore. Another problem with HR fellows is that they are either bookish or inefficient. I read a lot of bookish stuff on HR practices, this or that. In reality, it's all about the actions that are visible on the ground. The picture does not look very rosy!
Thank you.
From India, Ghaziabad
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With all due respect towards the HR fraternity, we want to trust them, but their actions force us not to trust them anymore. Another problem with HR fellows is that they are either bookish or inefficient. I read a lot of bookish stuff on HR practices, this or that. In reality, it's all about the actions that are visible on the ground. The picture does not look very rosy!
Thank you.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Seems alll this is written of sheer frustration, Would suggest do not make a general comment based on your perception.
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Ok, I think I am too amateur to answer your question, but then I have an answer, and I will give it a shot. I am just an MBA student (yes, an HR student, of course). Currently, I am doing my summer internship at GE (a Fortune 6 company), and I think I am honored to be working on a project in HR (and not marketing, finance, or IT).
Why? Because of what I have seen and experienced. I have the best project at hand, and I am really doing some "real" work, not just trying to sell "credit cards" or "insurance."
People say HR are the last ones to enter the office and the first ones to leave. No, that's not correct. Two weeks into GE, I have observed that they are the first ones to arrive and the last ones to leave.
When did they last gather feedback from employees? All the time! GE has the best feedback system in place, and processes are changed significantly based on the responses received. I have been tasked with collecting feedback from employees, and I am glad there are employees who still believe that the initiatives by the HR department do make a difference. It's a two-way process.
I am sorry if you have a poor HR system in your organization, and they are not doing a good job. Hiring the wrong people, implementing useless policies, etc. My sympathies to you, dear sir. However, considering you receive 4-5 job offers a day and dislike the HR department in your office, I am surprised you haven't considered switching jobs.
Furthermore, you should have been the last person to ask these questions. I presume you are an engineer (I may be wrong—please accept my apologies if that's the case). In India, almost everyone is an engineer from some college or another. About 3 out of 5 graduates are engineers, but we can't compare them to the IIT graduates, right? It wouldn't be fair. So, it's not appropriate to generalize the entire HR population based on one experience.
There will always be someone not working efficiently in every function, but to blame "HR" for all your failures—that's idiotic.
I hope this answers your question.
Regards,
From India, Bangalore
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Why? Because of what I have seen and experienced. I have the best project at hand, and I am really doing some "real" work, not just trying to sell "credit cards" or "insurance."
People say HR are the last ones to enter the office and the first ones to leave. No, that's not correct. Two weeks into GE, I have observed that they are the first ones to arrive and the last ones to leave.
When did they last gather feedback from employees? All the time! GE has the best feedback system in place, and processes are changed significantly based on the responses received. I have been tasked with collecting feedback from employees, and I am glad there are employees who still believe that the initiatives by the HR department do make a difference. It's a two-way process.
I am sorry if you have a poor HR system in your organization, and they are not doing a good job. Hiring the wrong people, implementing useless policies, etc. My sympathies to you, dear sir. However, considering you receive 4-5 job offers a day and dislike the HR department in your office, I am surprised you haven't considered switching jobs.
Furthermore, you should have been the last person to ask these questions. I presume you are an engineer (I may be wrong—please accept my apologies if that's the case). In India, almost everyone is an engineer from some college or another. About 3 out of 5 graduates are engineers, but we can't compare them to the IIT graduates, right? It wouldn't be fair. So, it's not appropriate to generalize the entire HR population based on one experience.
There will always be someone not working efficiently in every function, but to blame "HR" for all your failures—that's idiotic.
I hope this answers your question.
Regards,
From India, Bangalore
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Dear I_R, Just one confusion...!! You said HR ppl are busy in hiring Management’s relatives....So are you one of those relatives??
From Philippines
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From Philippines
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Dear Friend,
I empathize with you for the kind of HR system your company has. HR is said to be the bridge between management and employees, but I feel both parties consider them as garbage dumps (a place to dump their frustrations). Management hires HR only to escape from employees.
Employee satisfaction is only possible when higher management intervenes. The same is the case with technical staff – they never spare time for any changes. I conducted a satisfaction survey twice last year, but none of them came forward. Only when I made it anonymous did a few come forward to write down their complaints, which we could address the very next month.
Instead of employees cursing HR or just considering them a mere complaint box, if they can come forward, share their ideas, and give their time, a lot can be done.
Management considers HR only as a support function and tries to dump all the work, from training office boys to housekeeping, on them. They are used as receptionists or salesgirls promoting the company's brand. What kind of policies can she make, and to what extent will she be able to satisfy employees' needs?
Thank you.
From India, Hyderabad
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I empathize with you for the kind of HR system your company has. HR is said to be the bridge between management and employees, but I feel both parties consider them as garbage dumps (a place to dump their frustrations). Management hires HR only to escape from employees.
Employee satisfaction is only possible when higher management intervenes. The same is the case with technical staff – they never spare time for any changes. I conducted a satisfaction survey twice last year, but none of them came forward. Only when I made it anonymous did a few come forward to write down their complaints, which we could address the very next month.
Instead of employees cursing HR or just considering them a mere complaint box, if they can come forward, share their ideas, and give their time, a lot can be done.
Management considers HR only as a support function and tries to dump all the work, from training office boys to housekeeping, on them. They are used as receptionists or salesgirls promoting the company's brand. What kind of policies can she make, and to what extent will she be able to satisfy employees' needs?
Thank you.
From India, Hyderabad
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It really pains me to read your mail, India rebel. Looks like you have been in the wrong place for quite a long time. Time to breathe fresh air.
Blame no. 1
The atmosphere at the office is worsened by HR.
My Opinion: The atmosphere goes for a toss only if managers, project leads, or the immediate head (applies to tech staff as well) cannot behave professionally. They have problems getting along with the team. Unfortunately, the scapegoat is the HR department to blame. Why can't you fellows change your immediate surroundings to a more positive one by your own effort? Should you always wait for others in totally different departments unrelated to the scenario to intervene for all petty matters that are blown out of proportion?
Blame -2
EMPLOYEE FEEDBACKS ARE NOT CONSIDERED
My dear friend, let me tell you again: do not generalize this statement. It may be applicable to certain companies but not all. If that were the case, Infosys, Wipro, Mindtree Consulting, etc., would not have figured out in the list of companies that are employee caring.
For your kind understanding, in my company, we have an open system of taking feedback from employees as and when they give it. Over and above this, the employee satisfaction and feedback survey is conducted EVERY QUARTER.
Blame -3
Canteens do not serve tasty food. The HR department has failed to change this.
The taste buds of people vary. You may like and relish a particular dish which may not go well with another person. So, do you expect your management to run multiple cuisines like South Indian, North Indian, Chinese, Continental, Thai, etc., for people that too in a subsidized canteen? Hew!
First find out if your company is willing to bear the cost of getting a different catering agency at additional costs before blatantly blaming the HR department. Or do you expect the members in the department to themselves cook in the canteens to make it better? (As you say the responsibility of HR!)
Blame - 4
People recruit only their relatives in the HR department.
My dear REBEL, I suggest you kindly take a look at various companies before making such one-sided or partially correct statements. I would like to know if all MNCs are having a mini home beyond home with their relatives in the HR department? Imagine IBM, Dell, Microsoft, etc., HAVING A WHOLE FAMILY IN THE HR DEPARTMENT! Ridiculous!
To give you an example: Imagine X, his father, daughter, son, his friend, the friend's sister, sister's relative, so on and so forth belonging to the HR department of a corporate! Unthinkable. I don't know how you could think of one frankly.
References are most welcome in any company; this policy has been a time-tested one for a simple reason that the person referring the other can be accountable and could be a trusted source.
Yes, workplace politics does exist everywhere. People are bent on bringing their own relatives to the workplace. But let me tell you this happens even with the techies. They are no saints. If a techie refers a candidate to the HR, they would certainly prefer to hire him if he has the right skills. So in your words, does that mean the techies are running their family tree in a company?
BLAME 5
HR is all about bookish nonsense.
Where does your technical knowledge come from – books or microchips? During your education, was the knowledge transferred through some other source? I never knew! Well, all knowledge comes from books and experience. Whatever is in the books has to be executed effectively. That is when the true meaning of the same is realized.
Instead of involving in the blame game, why don't you design some employee-friendly policy and present it to the management? Or if you cannot do that, why don't you at least help the HR department make your office a better place to work?
Before blaming the entire fraternity of HR, try to understand if your management is employee-centric or cost & profit-centric. This would probably enlighten you to some extent in understanding the department. At the end of the day, even the HR has to act according to the policies set by the management.
I would like to ask you certain things:
If all HR have treated you so badly, why are you still working in the same conditions? Can't you take some initiative to change it?
Is your department running on the principles of six sigma, without any flaws?
Mistakes are a part of mankind. No man is perfect. It all relies on how we strive towards perfection.
From India, Bangalore
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Blame no. 1
The atmosphere at the office is worsened by HR.
My Opinion: The atmosphere goes for a toss only if managers, project leads, or the immediate head (applies to tech staff as well) cannot behave professionally. They have problems getting along with the team. Unfortunately, the scapegoat is the HR department to blame. Why can't you fellows change your immediate surroundings to a more positive one by your own effort? Should you always wait for others in totally different departments unrelated to the scenario to intervene for all petty matters that are blown out of proportion?
Blame -2
EMPLOYEE FEEDBACKS ARE NOT CONSIDERED
My dear friend, let me tell you again: do not generalize this statement. It may be applicable to certain companies but not all. If that were the case, Infosys, Wipro, Mindtree Consulting, etc., would not have figured out in the list of companies that are employee caring.
For your kind understanding, in my company, we have an open system of taking feedback from employees as and when they give it. Over and above this, the employee satisfaction and feedback survey is conducted EVERY QUARTER.
Blame -3
Canteens do not serve tasty food. The HR department has failed to change this.
The taste buds of people vary. You may like and relish a particular dish which may not go well with another person. So, do you expect your management to run multiple cuisines like South Indian, North Indian, Chinese, Continental, Thai, etc., for people that too in a subsidized canteen? Hew!
First find out if your company is willing to bear the cost of getting a different catering agency at additional costs before blatantly blaming the HR department. Or do you expect the members in the department to themselves cook in the canteens to make it better? (As you say the responsibility of HR!)
Blame - 4
People recruit only their relatives in the HR department.
My dear REBEL, I suggest you kindly take a look at various companies before making such one-sided or partially correct statements. I would like to know if all MNCs are having a mini home beyond home with their relatives in the HR department? Imagine IBM, Dell, Microsoft, etc., HAVING A WHOLE FAMILY IN THE HR DEPARTMENT! Ridiculous!
To give you an example: Imagine X, his father, daughter, son, his friend, the friend's sister, sister's relative, so on and so forth belonging to the HR department of a corporate! Unthinkable. I don't know how you could think of one frankly.
References are most welcome in any company; this policy has been a time-tested one for a simple reason that the person referring the other can be accountable and could be a trusted source.
Yes, workplace politics does exist everywhere. People are bent on bringing their own relatives to the workplace. But let me tell you this happens even with the techies. They are no saints. If a techie refers a candidate to the HR, they would certainly prefer to hire him if he has the right skills. So in your words, does that mean the techies are running their family tree in a company?
BLAME 5
HR is all about bookish nonsense.
Where does your technical knowledge come from – books or microchips? During your education, was the knowledge transferred through some other source? I never knew! Well, all knowledge comes from books and experience. Whatever is in the books has to be executed effectively. That is when the true meaning of the same is realized.
Instead of involving in the blame game, why don't you design some employee-friendly policy and present it to the management? Or if you cannot do that, why don't you at least help the HR department make your office a better place to work?
Before blaming the entire fraternity of HR, try to understand if your management is employee-centric or cost & profit-centric. This would probably enlighten you to some extent in understanding the department. At the end of the day, even the HR has to act according to the policies set by the management.
I would like to ask you certain things:
If all HR have treated you so badly, why are you still working in the same conditions? Can't you take some initiative to change it?
Is your department running on the principles of six sigma, without any flaws?
Mistakes are a part of mankind. No man is perfect. It all relies on how we strive towards perfection.
From India, Bangalore
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Hi Mr. or Ms. India Rebel,
Sorry - I don't have your name so I cannot address you correctly.
You are right when you say that HR practices are faulty and cause more problems (you used the term 'mess') in the organization. One of the chief causes of problems in the organization is wrong recruitment.
I am an HR professional with 14 years of experience in a variety of industries with both international and national organizations. I have done or been part of 3 formal employee satisfaction surveys, along with taking regular informal feedback by simply listening to employees. I learned this from my first HR head, and I agree with his view that this is the only way an HR person would be effective in his role. Of course, you need to work on developing the employees' trust first.
I am attempting some guesses at your situation - present and past. Let me know how accurate I am.
What you describe as a work environment appears to be similar to or actually a family-run organization. Having worked in one, I am aware of how frustrating it is when you want to be impartial and have a performance-focused culture.
Ethics are almost always stretched in these types of organizations.
Going by your comments, it is apparent that you have worked in a number of such organizations OR are working under some manager who subscribes to nepotism. Yes, these exist in all organizations in one form or another. For example, I know a senior manager who has a preference for an armed forces background in his team simply because he is from the same background. I had quite a time managing his expectations because he would not see the wood for the trees.
Please understand that HR is the most frustrating job after administration in any organization. Simply because we deal with people (who are unpredictable by default) and not software or hardware processes which, though standardized, still give errors. I think Scott Adams said, "To err is human, but to really foul things up - you need a computer." :) But I digress... sorry.
As others before me have said, you cannot generalize or condemn the entire profession based on the actions of a few! I understand that these are your experiences and therefore are TRUTH to you and others like Snowbird who have had similar experiences. In any profession, a few bad ones tend to cause suspicion to fall on innocent others.
You had also mentioned something along the lines of "not putting education into practice." Except for a few disciplines like CA or ICWA or CS or LLB, putting education into practice is a difficult task. A friend faced a similar shock when he tried to understand why companies DON'T do things which make them employee-friendly (as described in various management books). It took a lot of counseling to make him understand that all companies exist for profit first, everything else - including people - afterward. :( Thus, it is management policy that drives HR behavior and HR policy most of the time. Blaming HR all the time would be futile. Even the institutes that create such management graduates are more interested in money and student numbers rather than imparting education and training to their customers. I have interviewed a number of freshers who don't have their basics in place - at the time of the final semesters. What then would you comment about education institutes? Are all bad? Would you argue that it is what the student utilizes of the education that counts? Then you are not generalizing anymore.
All HR professionals are aware that they cannot keep each and every employee happy 100% of the time. That is a dream - nothing more than an illusion that we all learn in college and B-schools and assume to be true. Then reality bites quite hard.
If your value system doesn't permit you to accept this, then perhaps the best thing you could do for yourself is leave your current organization.
Overall, I was not able to understand the purpose of your posting. :p So I don't know if I have clarified anything for you. :cool::rolleyes:
Regards,
Ryan
From India, Mumbai
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Sorry - I don't have your name so I cannot address you correctly.
You are right when you say that HR practices are faulty and cause more problems (you used the term 'mess') in the organization. One of the chief causes of problems in the organization is wrong recruitment.
I am an HR professional with 14 years of experience in a variety of industries with both international and national organizations. I have done or been part of 3 formal employee satisfaction surveys, along with taking regular informal feedback by simply listening to employees. I learned this from my first HR head, and I agree with his view that this is the only way an HR person would be effective in his role. Of course, you need to work on developing the employees' trust first.
I am attempting some guesses at your situation - present and past. Let me know how accurate I am.
What you describe as a work environment appears to be similar to or actually a family-run organization. Having worked in one, I am aware of how frustrating it is when you want to be impartial and have a performance-focused culture.
Ethics are almost always stretched in these types of organizations.
Going by your comments, it is apparent that you have worked in a number of such organizations OR are working under some manager who subscribes to nepotism. Yes, these exist in all organizations in one form or another. For example, I know a senior manager who has a preference for an armed forces background in his team simply because he is from the same background. I had quite a time managing his expectations because he would not see the wood for the trees.
Please understand that HR is the most frustrating job after administration in any organization. Simply because we deal with people (who are unpredictable by default) and not software or hardware processes which, though standardized, still give errors. I think Scott Adams said, "To err is human, but to really foul things up - you need a computer." :) But I digress... sorry.
As others before me have said, you cannot generalize or condemn the entire profession based on the actions of a few! I understand that these are your experiences and therefore are TRUTH to you and others like Snowbird who have had similar experiences. In any profession, a few bad ones tend to cause suspicion to fall on innocent others.
You had also mentioned something along the lines of "not putting education into practice." Except for a few disciplines like CA or ICWA or CS or LLB, putting education into practice is a difficult task. A friend faced a similar shock when he tried to understand why companies DON'T do things which make them employee-friendly (as described in various management books). It took a lot of counseling to make him understand that all companies exist for profit first, everything else - including people - afterward. :( Thus, it is management policy that drives HR behavior and HR policy most of the time. Blaming HR all the time would be futile. Even the institutes that create such management graduates are more interested in money and student numbers rather than imparting education and training to their customers. I have interviewed a number of freshers who don't have their basics in place - at the time of the final semesters. What then would you comment about education institutes? Are all bad? Would you argue that it is what the student utilizes of the education that counts? Then you are not generalizing anymore.
All HR professionals are aware that they cannot keep each and every employee happy 100% of the time. That is a dream - nothing more than an illusion that we all learn in college and B-schools and assume to be true. Then reality bites quite hard.
If your value system doesn't permit you to accept this, then perhaps the best thing you could do for yourself is leave your current organization.
Overall, I was not able to understand the purpose of your posting. :p So I don't know if I have clarified anything for you. :cool::rolleyes:
Regards,
Ryan
From India, Mumbai
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Truth about employee feedback is that in all companies, as formality employee always give positive feedback, and fear to give negative feedback , as it would involve the wrath of HR.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Thanks for sharing your side of the story. I have worked for primarily large companies and receive job offers from CMM-5 levels and above. I have not addressed issues with companies that are centered around one individual or those operating out of just two rooms.
The current situation on the ground is truly alarming. Please read the second part of the story, focusing on hiring practices. I can attest that I have experience in major organizations and have conducted extensive research on HR malpractices in India. It is ironic that employees have no recourse if companies mistreat them.
Many individuals like Seema, Ryan, and others may be employed by companies I have worked with or have knowledge of in some capacity. I have refrained from publicly disclosing specific company names.
Have you considered allowing a junior-level employee in your company to conduct an audit of HR practices? Alternatively, you could form a group within your organization to audit your personnel. I understand if you are hesitant to do so. A thorough HR audit exposing any misconduct would likely result in significant changes within the HR department.
While I acknowledge that there are honest individuals in the HR field, they are unfortunately in the minority. The future should not be determined by the minority.
As some have said, in an honest society, corrupt individuals struggle to thrive, whereas in a corrupt society, honest individuals face challenges.
From India, Ghaziabad
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The current situation on the ground is truly alarming. Please read the second part of the story, focusing on hiring practices. I can attest that I have experience in major organizations and have conducted extensive research on HR malpractices in India. It is ironic that employees have no recourse if companies mistreat them.
Many individuals like Seema, Ryan, and others may be employed by companies I have worked with or have knowledge of in some capacity. I have refrained from publicly disclosing specific company names.
Have you considered allowing a junior-level employee in your company to conduct an audit of HR practices? Alternatively, you could form a group within your organization to audit your personnel. I understand if you are hesitant to do so. A thorough HR audit exposing any misconduct would likely result in significant changes within the HR department.
While I acknowledge that there are honest individuals in the HR field, they are unfortunately in the minority. The future should not be determined by the minority.
As some have said, in an honest society, corrupt individuals struggle to thrive, whereas in a corrupt society, honest individuals face challenges.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Dear Sir,
It seems your mind is really made up, so it's worthless to try to convince you. However, I, as a future HR person, would still like to believe that things are not the way you put it. I hope you get to meet some good people at work. Good luck.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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It seems your mind is really made up, so it's worthless to try to convince you. However, I, as a future HR person, would still like to believe that things are not the way you put it. I hope you get to meet some good people at work. Good luck.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Hi I think you are gooin in wrong direction. Just come out and think positve then you will realize that every postion is having their own responsibilities, ploicies and obligation etc..
From India, Ghaziabad
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From India, Ghaziabad
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Rupali and others,
What we undergo daily is beyond understanding. It really pains me to see the state of affairs. I do my job honestly and hope to get fair treatment and resolutions from the responsible people. As someone wrote about frustration here, look at the company you are in. I can tell you names of the companies; I say "NO" to their HR guy. I know the environment is not worth trying. These are all big companies. According to HR folks, it looks like everything is okay there.
Come out of the books and mess; there is a lot to be done on the ground. Face it. Denying a problem doesn't solve it. One has to take steps. The first step to a solution is to accept that the problem exists.
From India, Ghaziabad
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What we undergo daily is beyond understanding. It really pains me to see the state of affairs. I do my job honestly and hope to get fair treatment and resolutions from the responsible people. As someone wrote about frustration here, look at the company you are in. I can tell you names of the companies; I say "NO" to their HR guy. I know the environment is not worth trying. These are all big companies. According to HR folks, it looks like everything is okay there.
Come out of the books and mess; there is a lot to be done on the ground. Face it. Denying a problem doesn't solve it. One has to take steps. The first step to a solution is to accept that the problem exists.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Hi,
I agree with Vidya that with limited perception, we cannot draw conclusions about the entire HR fraternity. The company can only meet its targets when the right person is placed in the right job, which is the role of HR. This is a significant contribution by HR to the organization.
Regards,
Vani
From India, Hyderabad
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I agree with Vidya that with limited perception, we cannot draw conclusions about the entire HR fraternity. The company can only meet its targets when the right person is placed in the right job, which is the role of HR. This is a significant contribution by HR to the organization.
Regards,
Vani
From India, Hyderabad
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Every person has their own way of experiencing things, so you can't say HR is good or bad. HR, in itself, is a diplomatic job because they have to manage the expectations of the management as well as the people; hence, it's not an easy thing to do as you get criticism from both ends. However, these days HR is evolving, so there may be instances where HR is not performing well. If one or two people are bad, it does not mean the entire HR community is bad. Of course, in terms of ratio, I would acknowledge that there is a higher percentage of such cases as everyone tends to think of themselves rather than others, which is wrong as an HR person should be neutral.
From United Kingdom
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From United Kingdom
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I would suggest that we should think from all directions while addressing any issue. I agree that there are issues one faces in HR. Getting something done for the employees requires 'n' number of approvals involving 'x' amount of data to back it up.
From United Kingdom, London
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From United Kingdom, London
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Trinity, no one requires approvals from anyone, to be honest. Twisting the facts and not being upfront and honest with the candidate amounts to a breach. No one needs approval for doing it either.
Gaggan, it really does not require a big survey to feel the market. A neutral person always supports injustice, but I have rarely seen a neutral HR guy. An average HR guy has his personal agenda to follow. :-)
Vani, I doubt the statement that HR puts the right guy in the right job. HR does not have the technical, logistical, or psychological abilities to find the right guy. If they are putting the right guy in the right job, there should not be any dissatisfaction. No company has ever claimed that its HR did the job perfectly well.
I hope none of you would like to know the names of the companies whose HR have started asking money for a job from candidates??? If you would like to know, I'm happy to disclose the names.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Gaggan, it really does not require a big survey to feel the market. A neutral person always supports injustice, but I have rarely seen a neutral HR guy. An average HR guy has his personal agenda to follow. :-)
Vani, I doubt the statement that HR puts the right guy in the right job. HR does not have the technical, logistical, or psychological abilities to find the right guy. If they are putting the right guy in the right job, there should not be any dissatisfaction. No company has ever claimed that its HR did the job perfectly well.
I hope none of you would like to know the names of the companies whose HR have started asking money for a job from candidates??? If you would like to know, I'm happy to disclose the names.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Hi India Rebel,
Sorry, could not get back into this enchanting discussion since I was busy with regular work.
You said, "What about it, Let a junior-level guy in your company do the audit of HR work!!!... Or choose the group of people in your organization to do an audit of your people. I know you would never do that.. If a true audit is done of HR work and their misdoings, HR will not remain there."
Some questions on this:
1) What, according to you, is HR work?
2) Secondly - how would a junior-level guy do any kind of audit with consistency? Even a finance audit is conducted by those studying for ICWA/ICA (not those completed) and the questions they generally ask only betray their lack of knowledge.
I did read your article on hiring malpractices, and I agree that some of them do exist - BUT they are NOT as WIDESPREAD as you claim. Please understand that HR people are also human and prone to temptations, like everyone else. As long as money and/or power are treated as the only priority in people's lives, there will always be a malpractice of sorts. Despite your experiences, there do happen to be many HR folks who work with integrity.
If you are getting calls from CMM-5 companies, why don't you join them? I know that all the processes (including HR) there would be more stringent than where you currently are.
I am rather curious about the reason you have not disclosed your name. If you wish to be the revealer of TRUTH, perhaps you should also tell us your name. Of course, you may be afraid of being blacklisted by organizations where "whistleblowers" are rejected, but then surely some "honest" organization would hire you.
Since you have so many complaints against HR, who would you nominate to do the work we do? Have you tried to walk in our shoes? If you have, then this discussion would probably not be taking place. :)
You also said, "I doubt the statement that HR puts the right guy on the right job. HR does not have technical, logistical, psychological abilities to find the right guy."
The first part of that statement is theory, the second is practical - up to a point. For example, an HR person cannot do a technical evaluation unless they have a formal technical background in that field.
The truth is that HR tries to put the right person in the right job - many times, the factor of time and CTC constraint (given by the organization) makes the HR and the organization compromise. This is reality! Would you like to be told that "we don't find you entirely suitable for the role, but we will try to groom you and hope for the best"? Obviously, dissatisfaction will arise from this process. I don't know if you are aware, but even biological twins are dissimilar in behaviors. Each and every human being is different; hence the fitment of a person to a job is always discussed in terms of "best possible fit." It is very rare that you find a perfect "fits like a glove" candidate for the vacancy. I have seen this only twice or thrice in my career, and hired them.
All the best.
Regards,
Ryan
From India, Mumbai
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Sorry, could not get back into this enchanting discussion since I was busy with regular work.
You said, "What about it, Let a junior-level guy in your company do the audit of HR work!!!... Or choose the group of people in your organization to do an audit of your people. I know you would never do that.. If a true audit is done of HR work and their misdoings, HR will not remain there."
Some questions on this:
1) What, according to you, is HR work?
2) Secondly - how would a junior-level guy do any kind of audit with consistency? Even a finance audit is conducted by those studying for ICWA/ICA (not those completed) and the questions they generally ask only betray their lack of knowledge.
I did read your article on hiring malpractices, and I agree that some of them do exist - BUT they are NOT as WIDESPREAD as you claim. Please understand that HR people are also human and prone to temptations, like everyone else. As long as money and/or power are treated as the only priority in people's lives, there will always be a malpractice of sorts. Despite your experiences, there do happen to be many HR folks who work with integrity.
If you are getting calls from CMM-5 companies, why don't you join them? I know that all the processes (including HR) there would be more stringent than where you currently are.
I am rather curious about the reason you have not disclosed your name. If you wish to be the revealer of TRUTH, perhaps you should also tell us your name. Of course, you may be afraid of being blacklisted by organizations where "whistleblowers" are rejected, but then surely some "honest" organization would hire you.
Since you have so many complaints against HR, who would you nominate to do the work we do? Have you tried to walk in our shoes? If you have, then this discussion would probably not be taking place. :)
You also said, "I doubt the statement that HR puts the right guy on the right job. HR does not have technical, logistical, psychological abilities to find the right guy."
The first part of that statement is theory, the second is practical - up to a point. For example, an HR person cannot do a technical evaluation unless they have a formal technical background in that field.
The truth is that HR tries to put the right person in the right job - many times, the factor of time and CTC constraint (given by the organization) makes the HR and the organization compromise. This is reality! Would you like to be told that "we don't find you entirely suitable for the role, but we will try to groom you and hope for the best"? Obviously, dissatisfaction will arise from this process. I don't know if you are aware, but even biological twins are dissimilar in behaviors. Each and every human being is different; hence the fitment of a person to a job is always discussed in terms of "best possible fit." It is very rare that you find a perfect "fits like a glove" candidate for the vacancy. I have seen this only twice or thrice in my career, and hired them.
All the best.
Regards,
Ryan
From India, Mumbai
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Well, well, My identity is "I am an employee of your organization."
You know why people hide their identity on citehr. The simple reason is the fear of being targeted with malicious vendetta. All of us are seasoned and need not be told what would happen next. Get the message, which should be loud and clear. HR needs to do a lot of introspection. A sickness cannot be cured by ignoring it. Ryan, I value your thoughts. I have never seen or experienced any HR person who did not have a hidden agenda one way or another.
Look at this, two companies' HR called me and asked for money for a job, saying it is a security deposit of 50 to 75k. Do you think it is ethical to ask for such money? One thing is certain, these are schemes designed by some unethical HR individuals in collaboration with management only. My experience with overseas HR professionals has been much better and more positive.
From India, Ghaziabad
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You know why people hide their identity on citehr. The simple reason is the fear of being targeted with malicious vendetta. All of us are seasoned and need not be told what would happen next. Get the message, which should be loud and clear. HR needs to do a lot of introspection. A sickness cannot be cured by ignoring it. Ryan, I value your thoughts. I have never seen or experienced any HR person who did not have a hidden agenda one way or another.
Look at this, two companies' HR called me and asked for money for a job, saying it is a security deposit of 50 to 75k. Do you think it is ethical to ask for such money? One thing is certain, these are schemes designed by some unethical HR individuals in collaboration with management only. My experience with overseas HR professionals has been much better and more positive.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Believe it or not, these are the facts and they will get easily irritated if we ask for work. Otherwise, they are okay. They prefer to work for seniors, and junior staff has to face a lot of harassment.
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I completely agree with Shreem and other HR supporters. Obviously, I am also an HR professional, and I know the complexities of this field. We are the people who have to manage from both sides - from employees and also from employers. Anyways, hope someday somebody will recognize our worth ;)
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Yamini and Jyoti:
Please read my second post as well. If you still choose to defend the indefensible, you are most welcome: https://www.citehr.com/99060-lets-fa...t2-hiring.html
If you have something to say of your own, engage in some introspection. You are most welcome.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Please read my second post as well. If you still choose to defend the indefensible, you are most welcome: https://www.citehr.com/99060-lets-fa...t2-hiring.html
If you have something to say of your own, engage in some introspection. You are most welcome.
From India, Ghaziabad
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Hi,
India Rebel said, "[I]A sickness cannot be cured by ignoring it. Ryan, I value your thoughts. I have never seen or experienced any HR guy who did not have a hidden agenda, this or that.
Look at this, two companies' HR called me and asked for money for a job, telling me it is a security deposit of 50 to 75k. Do you think it is ethical to ask for such money? One thing is there; these are designs made by some crappy HR with management only.
Experience with overseas HR folks has been much better and nice."
You are correct that a sickness cannot be cured by ignoring it. I don't think it's ethical to ask for a so-called security deposit for a job. Some time back, I found that a recruitment consultant working with my organization was asking candidates whom they placed to pay them a month's salary. This would have been in addition to what my organization was paying the consultant. I told that consultant not to do this; else, we would not give them any more assignments. The consultant tried to sell this as "I groom them to meet your profile standards," to which I questioned if the grooming could be compared with that provided by Frankfinn (which provides training to flight aviation staff) or NIIT (which provides IT training). The consultant could not answer this and did not bother our employee - but we soon stopped giving new assignments there, since we had other things to do than get involved in these discussions.
Were you referring to a Training Bond by any chance? By the way, I don't think there are too many people on this planet who don't have hidden agendas. Even kids have them, so let's not point fingers only at the HR guys.
Lovebird said, "And whatsoever you may disagree, I have not seen a single organization wherein the employees have praised their HR; only the HR wastes time making big presentations and depicting that they did this and they did that, and see that they get their regular pay rise, etc.
But if the HR truly works there should not be any need for them to just make big presentations to show what they do for employee welfare; it should automatically come from the employee, 'Yes, my HR dept does have concern about my welfare.'
So unless someone tells you, don't assume that your HR is contributing too much and greatly to the organization."
I am not too sure, but I would consider recruiting someone like India Rebel as a contribution to the organization. Would you have reason to disagree? You are correct when you say that the best positive feedback is that which comes from external sources, rather than the person praising themselves.
Have you taken a look at the world we live in lately? If you don't really praise yourself, not many will praise you - at least not during your lifetime... for example, the person who would make violins with the greatest care and concern for quality became well known post his demise. Ask for a Stradivarius Violin, and you will know the value it has today.
I am not prone to making many assumptions - though an HR role requires that assumptions and judgments are made - during recruitment or appraisals or grievance issues. We, as HR, have to back this with facts, numbers, or observable behavior. By the way, observable is subjective - hence needs to be understood before being judged.
However, it appears that you are suffering from "white crow syndrome" - which means that just because you have not seen something with your eyes (also read as "experienced"), doesn't mean it doesn't exist. To translate further, just because you may not have seen a white crow, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hey, as far as the white crow is concerned, Lovebird, YOU do not exist, though other humans possibly exist for it.
I wonder how "truth" is defined. I wonder how many would agree with the definition. And if there is disagreement, does that mean that the TRUTH ceases to exist or becomes a lie? I don't know. Can anyone answer this?
Regards,
Ryan
From India, Mumbai
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India Rebel said, "[I]A sickness cannot be cured by ignoring it. Ryan, I value your thoughts. I have never seen or experienced any HR guy who did not have a hidden agenda, this or that.
Look at this, two companies' HR called me and asked for money for a job, telling me it is a security deposit of 50 to 75k. Do you think it is ethical to ask for such money? One thing is there; these are designs made by some crappy HR with management only.
Experience with overseas HR folks has been much better and nice."
You are correct that a sickness cannot be cured by ignoring it. I don't think it's ethical to ask for a so-called security deposit for a job. Some time back, I found that a recruitment consultant working with my organization was asking candidates whom they placed to pay them a month's salary. This would have been in addition to what my organization was paying the consultant. I told that consultant not to do this; else, we would not give them any more assignments. The consultant tried to sell this as "I groom them to meet your profile standards," to which I questioned if the grooming could be compared with that provided by Frankfinn (which provides training to flight aviation staff) or NIIT (which provides IT training). The consultant could not answer this and did not bother our employee - but we soon stopped giving new assignments there, since we had other things to do than get involved in these discussions.
Were you referring to a Training Bond by any chance? By the way, I don't think there are too many people on this planet who don't have hidden agendas. Even kids have them, so let's not point fingers only at the HR guys.
Lovebird said, "And whatsoever you may disagree, I have not seen a single organization wherein the employees have praised their HR; only the HR wastes time making big presentations and depicting that they did this and they did that, and see that they get their regular pay rise, etc.
But if the HR truly works there should not be any need for them to just make big presentations to show what they do for employee welfare; it should automatically come from the employee, 'Yes, my HR dept does have concern about my welfare.'
So unless someone tells you, don't assume that your HR is contributing too much and greatly to the organization."
I am not too sure, but I would consider recruiting someone like India Rebel as a contribution to the organization. Would you have reason to disagree? You are correct when you say that the best positive feedback is that which comes from external sources, rather than the person praising themselves.
Have you taken a look at the world we live in lately? If you don't really praise yourself, not many will praise you - at least not during your lifetime... for example, the person who would make violins with the greatest care and concern for quality became well known post his demise. Ask for a Stradivarius Violin, and you will know the value it has today.
I am not prone to making many assumptions - though an HR role requires that assumptions and judgments are made - during recruitment or appraisals or grievance issues. We, as HR, have to back this with facts, numbers, or observable behavior. By the way, observable is subjective - hence needs to be understood before being judged.
However, it appears that you are suffering from "white crow syndrome" - which means that just because you have not seen something with your eyes (also read as "experienced"), doesn't mean it doesn't exist. To translate further, just because you may not have seen a white crow, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hey, as far as the white crow is concerned, Lovebird, YOU do not exist, though other humans possibly exist for it.
I wonder how "truth" is defined. I wonder how many would agree with the definition. And if there is disagreement, does that mean that the TRUTH ceases to exist or becomes a lie? I don't know. Can anyone answer this?
Regards,
Ryan
From India, Mumbai
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Hi, I am a government servant. I don't have any experience in private companies. Currently, I am working in the HR department of a government agency. What assumptions can you make about us? We, however, never think about the HR department in the same way. Those who behave with you may not necessarily be HR professionals. There is a possibility that they are relatives of higher authorities and were able to secure a job only in the HR department. If a company recruits these types of individuals, you can imagine how long that company will survive.
From India, Indore
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From India, Indore
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Hello there,
India Rebel, I do wish to congratulate citehr for giving you this platform to vent your rage. For your information, HR in any organization is paid/appointed to make difficult decisions. The role itself is a tightrope walk to keep a balance between employer and employee. You may not be aware of how many careers have been saved/created by HR because we will never tell due to professional integrity. Your wrath is understandable as only a small fraction of HR work is visible. I suggest you join HR and work there for at least a year. Then we can talk about your experiences. You shield employees from action, you advance careers, you give opportunities to promising people, and you hardly get a thank you. People walk away without knowing how much HR has silently contributed to them. We were told while studying HR that this is a thankless job. Whatever you do, you WILL be criticized. I have no issues with that.
Frankly, I have no complaints against you either. To watch people you recruited grow and flourish is a joy you need to experience to believe, even if those people don't thank you.
Wishing you the best,
Pavan
Yes, I am an HR professional and proud to be so.
From India, Mumbai
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India Rebel, I do wish to congratulate citehr for giving you this platform to vent your rage. For your information, HR in any organization is paid/appointed to make difficult decisions. The role itself is a tightrope walk to keep a balance between employer and employee. You may not be aware of how many careers have been saved/created by HR because we will never tell due to professional integrity. Your wrath is understandable as only a small fraction of HR work is visible. I suggest you join HR and work there for at least a year. Then we can talk about your experiences. You shield employees from action, you advance careers, you give opportunities to promising people, and you hardly get a thank you. People walk away without knowing how much HR has silently contributed to them. We were told while studying HR that this is a thankless job. Whatever you do, you WILL be criticized. I have no issues with that.
Frankly, I have no complaints against you either. To watch people you recruited grow and flourish is a joy you need to experience to believe, even if those people don't thank you.
Wishing you the best,
Pavan
Yes, I am an HR professional and proud to be so.
From India, Mumbai
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