Respected Seniors and my dear fellow members,
I would like to invite your views on a very common problem which is perhaps faced by all HR professionals. There are bound to be some employees in every company who have been with the company since its inception and hence are in the good books of the management (most of the time). They think they have the liberty to bend and break the office discipline the way they want to. Things become even more difficult as 9 out of 10 times the company is very dependent on this particular resource and cannot afford to lose them on short notice.
Moreover, if the HR person, like me, is junior to them in experience and age, then it becomes all the more difficult to enforce discipline. In my company, there are some senior resources who refuse to abide by basic rules like wearing an ID card or signing the attendance register. Every day, I have to think of something new to convince them to follow this basic rule. When I inform the management about it, they tell me that I need to handle them tactfully.
I am in the process of learning the tricks of the trade, but I would like to earnestly request you to help me out with this situation.
Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
From India, Pune
3I would like to invite your views on a very common problem which is perhaps faced by all HR professionals. There are bound to be some employees in every company who have been with the company since its inception and hence are in the good books of the management (most of the time). They think they have the liberty to bend and break the office discipline the way they want to. Things become even more difficult as 9 out of 10 times the company is very dependent on this particular resource and cannot afford to lose them on short notice.
Moreover, if the HR person, like me, is junior to them in experience and age, then it becomes all the more difficult to enforce discipline. In my company, there are some senior resources who refuse to abide by basic rules like wearing an ID card or signing the attendance register. Every day, I have to think of something new to convince them to follow this basic rule. When I inform the management about it, they tell me that I need to handle them tactfully.
I am in the process of learning the tricks of the trade, but I would like to earnestly request you to help me out with this situation.
Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
From India, Pune
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Hi,
The problem you have mentioned pertains to every organization. Yes, you have to be tactful, which means if you are unable to resolve it with a humble request and a polite approach, it's high time to work in black and white. You can write letters expressing your concerns to them, with a CC to their reporting managers and the management body.
Hope this works. Good luck.
Ankita Kohli
From India, New Delhi
The problem you have mentioned pertains to every organization. Yes, you have to be tactful, which means if you are unable to resolve it with a humble request and a polite approach, it's high time to work in black and white. You can write letters expressing your concerns to them, with a CC to their reporting managers and the management body.
Hope this works. Good luck.
Ankita Kohli
From India, New Delhi
Respected Senior (Ankita),
Thank you for your suggestion. That can be a good way to tackle them, but I saved that for the future as I have just joined the organization. Moreover, time and again, I need help from them regarding their team members' performance-related issues, again for inputs on recruitment, so I have to keep them warm also. I will start sending them mails in black and white but politely, marking a copy to their senior (as you have mentioned), and then wait for the results. By doing so, I will also have a record with me that I did remind them about the office rules and regulations.
Thank you once again.
Indrani Chakraborty
From India, Pune
Thank you for your suggestion. That can be a good way to tackle them, but I saved that for the future as I have just joined the organization. Moreover, time and again, I need help from them regarding their team members' performance-related issues, again for inputs on recruitment, so I have to keep them warm also. I will start sending them mails in black and white but politely, marking a copy to their senior (as you have mentioned), and then wait for the results. By doing so, I will also have a record with me that I did remind them about the office rules and regulations.
Thank you once again.
Indrani Chakraborty
From India, Pune
Hi Indrani, it's tough to tackle these people who think that the company works because of them and the kind of attitude they carry, which only influences their team members and reflects in their behaviors too.
I have faced the same situation. I have arranged meetings with my director and the senior team about the new updates, giving them importance and explaining how inspiring or influencing they are. I have also arranged team meetings, asking the senior people to take presentations on office etiquettes, dress sense, attendance, and discipline. I have asked each department head to take classes twice a month. I can see a lot of change in them now. I THINK TACT AND DIPLOMACY play a vital role in handling these kinds of typical people. Hope this was of some help to you.
From India, Hyderabad
I have faced the same situation. I have arranged meetings with my director and the senior team about the new updates, giving them importance and explaining how inspiring or influencing they are. I have also arranged team meetings, asking the senior people to take presentations on office etiquettes, dress sense, attendance, and discipline. I have asked each department head to take classes twice a month. I can see a lot of change in them now. I THINK TACT AND DIPLOMACY play a vital role in handling these kinds of typical people. Hope this was of some help to you.
From India, Hyderabad
Respected Senior (Sari),
I must say your ideas are very good. I will definitely try to adopt a few of them and implement the same at the workplace. You know where the problem lies; anything that I tell them falls on deaf ears. Since they are the people who generate business for the company, they take HR as a support function and they think all HR people are big fools!
One more problem that I face is the newcomers in the organization tend to follow the senior people, which is quite obvious, and they adopt all the malpractices that their seniors have been following for ages. For example, no employee is allowed to listen to music at work as per instructions from the management, but since one senior guy is doing that, all other people have started doing the same.
I was really at my wit's end. I thank you once again for your wonderful advice. I just hope it works.
Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
From India, Pune
I must say your ideas are very good. I will definitely try to adopt a few of them and implement the same at the workplace. You know where the problem lies; anything that I tell them falls on deaf ears. Since they are the people who generate business for the company, they take HR as a support function and they think all HR people are big fools!
One more problem that I face is the newcomers in the organization tend to follow the senior people, which is quite obvious, and they adopt all the malpractices that their seniors have been following for ages. For example, no employee is allowed to listen to music at work as per instructions from the management, but since one senior guy is doing that, all other people have started doing the same.
I was really at my wit's end. I thank you once again for your wonderful advice. I just hope it works.
Thanks and Regards,
Indrani Chakraborty
From India, Pune
Well Well,
Though this is a really good topic to debate, and I can write some long pages on it, but to be short and precise, there are some things which we need to get cleared:
1. I once told my Personnel manager to do this, but straight away he told no. I was not happy with that as I wanted to do it and I thought whatever I am doing is good. Then one fine day I asked him about that issue, and he told me the reason for telling no, i.e., he explained it to me in a very good manner, and I came to know that I did not look at that matter from the other point/side. So mostly we juniors, fresh management people want to try many things, but the senior knows what is practically possible and what is not.
2. Well, the next thing as UNUSUALINDU told is that, Seniors listening to music, or doing things apart from official work in the office and juniors following the same. Here the problem is with more of junior or senior is really difficult to comment. A senior listening to music will catch the attention of juniors. Okay fine. But the senior must be just listening to music to de-stress, relax for just an hour/half an hour, and after that, he must be working/slogging the rest of the day. So the juniors here are failing to note the hard work done by senior and maybe they presume that the senior is enjoying. If the junior looks at the whole day schedule of the senior, he can understand that the senior has more responsibilities than the junior. So the ethical way in this situation would be to discourage the juniors from listening to music.
Even my boss listens to music sometimes, and almost most of the day my boss is not at the workplace busy in meetings, and at that time, no one is at my workplace, so I could listen to music, play my flash games, but I know I have this work, and if all work is done then I do involve in games, music, net, etc.
No doubt there are also seniors who hate juniors just because juniors are faster and more educated than them, and some seniors resist change, show arrogance, always say NO to junior's ideas.
The most ethical way would be to study the whole situation of your company, the management style, what management thinks is ethical, like you go to complain about a senior to some higher manager and you find him playing games. Then what, you have to presume that the senior got this inspiration from his SENIOR... am I correct?
So first thoroughly study your company and then make a decision in such cases to whom you can tell. Not necessarily whatever is theoretically correct needs to be followed, as practically something else happens.
YOUR SENIOR
or
YOUR JUNIOR
From India, Pune
Though this is a really good topic to debate, and I can write some long pages on it, but to be short and precise, there are some things which we need to get cleared:
1. I once told my Personnel manager to do this, but straight away he told no. I was not happy with that as I wanted to do it and I thought whatever I am doing is good. Then one fine day I asked him about that issue, and he told me the reason for telling no, i.e., he explained it to me in a very good manner, and I came to know that I did not look at that matter from the other point/side. So mostly we juniors, fresh management people want to try many things, but the senior knows what is practically possible and what is not.
2. Well, the next thing as UNUSUALINDU told is that, Seniors listening to music, or doing things apart from official work in the office and juniors following the same. Here the problem is with more of junior or senior is really difficult to comment. A senior listening to music will catch the attention of juniors. Okay fine. But the senior must be just listening to music to de-stress, relax for just an hour/half an hour, and after that, he must be working/slogging the rest of the day. So the juniors here are failing to note the hard work done by senior and maybe they presume that the senior is enjoying. If the junior looks at the whole day schedule of the senior, he can understand that the senior has more responsibilities than the junior. So the ethical way in this situation would be to discourage the juniors from listening to music.
Even my boss listens to music sometimes, and almost most of the day my boss is not at the workplace busy in meetings, and at that time, no one is at my workplace, so I could listen to music, play my flash games, but I know I have this work, and if all work is done then I do involve in games, music, net, etc.
No doubt there are also seniors who hate juniors just because juniors are faster and more educated than them, and some seniors resist change, show arrogance, always say NO to junior's ideas.
The most ethical way would be to study the whole situation of your company, the management style, what management thinks is ethical, like you go to complain about a senior to some higher manager and you find him playing games. Then what, you have to presume that the senior got this inspiration from his SENIOR... am I correct?
So first thoroughly study your company and then make a decision in such cases to whom you can tell. Not necessarily whatever is theoretically correct needs to be followed, as practically something else happens.
YOUR SENIOR
or
YOUR JUNIOR
From India, Pune
You know where the problem lies; anything that I tell them falls on deaf ears. Since they are the people who generate business for the company, they take HR as a support function, and they think all HR people are big fools!
The above statement is really very true. ONLY IN CASE OF SOME INDUSTRIES... and I agree with you.
When I was working in a manufacturing company, the management consisted of THREE PEOPLE: PLANT MANAGER, COMMERCIAL MANAGER, and HR MANAGER. But our HR had no say in anything. The major objective of any manufacturing plant is OUTPUT and nothing else. Even I had to forego my holidays without any overtime, common off, etc., because if, as an HR person, I give a common off or overtime, you just can't calculate the amount that they need to give other manufacturing supervisors. It will be more than their monthly salary is supposed to be.
Approximately, supervisors work 10 hours every day, whereas workers enjoy various benefits as they are covered by various labor laws, etc. So, every day, calculate a minimum of 2 hours of overtime, and working on holidays as well. HR does not give them, but in your company, your policy might be such that even if someone stays late, you must pay them.
From India, Pune
The above statement is really very true. ONLY IN CASE OF SOME INDUSTRIES... and I agree with you.
When I was working in a manufacturing company, the management consisted of THREE PEOPLE: PLANT MANAGER, COMMERCIAL MANAGER, and HR MANAGER. But our HR had no say in anything. The major objective of any manufacturing plant is OUTPUT and nothing else. Even I had to forego my holidays without any overtime, common off, etc., because if, as an HR person, I give a common off or overtime, you just can't calculate the amount that they need to give other manufacturing supervisors. It will be more than their monthly salary is supposed to be.
Approximately, supervisors work 10 hours every day, whereas workers enjoy various benefits as they are covered by various labor laws, etc. So, every day, calculate a minimum of 2 hours of overtime, and working on holidays as well. HR does not give them, but in your company, your policy might be such that even if someone stays late, you must pay them.
From India, Pune
In my company, there are some senior resources who refuse to abide by basic rules like wearing an ID card or signing the attendance register. Every day, I have to think of something new to convince them to follow this basic rule. When I inform the management about it, they tell me that I need to handle them tactfully.
The management tells us every time, but my personnel manager was good enough to tell me, "RAVI, this will happen, and we can't do anything to stop it."
So then I had to change my thinking that in this company, I cannot implement HR policies, etc. So the best would be, let me be concerned with my pay and work. The rest can go to hell.
With no support from management, it's useless to try and literally go against the management.
BUT HERE ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADVISE YOU...
Again, go to management and ask them that you're unable to do this and ask for their idea, advice, support. Maybe this situation needs to be dealt with a strategy which probably the management wants you to recognize and work out because a simple job for management, to tell any employee to stop listening to music or anything else, but you need to deal with this with extreme care. In HR, we also make some foes. Like the senior may presume that you're behind him to stop his listening to music, and what if he informs you of all other activities done by other seniors and asks you to stop it. This I have personally experienced, so I first see and study management then apply my brain. Maybe these activities reach deep into management.
Management is very tough, not easy.
From India, Pune
The management tells us every time, but my personnel manager was good enough to tell me, "RAVI, this will happen, and we can't do anything to stop it."
So then I had to change my thinking that in this company, I cannot implement HR policies, etc. So the best would be, let me be concerned with my pay and work. The rest can go to hell.
With no support from management, it's useless to try and literally go against the management.
BUT HERE ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADVISE YOU...
Again, go to management and ask them that you're unable to do this and ask for their idea, advice, support. Maybe this situation needs to be dealt with a strategy which probably the management wants you to recognize and work out because a simple job for management, to tell any employee to stop listening to music or anything else, but you need to deal with this with extreme care. In HR, we also make some foes. Like the senior may presume that you're behind him to stop his listening to music, and what if he informs you of all other activities done by other seniors and asks you to stop it. This I have personally experienced, so I first see and study management then apply my brain. Maybe these activities reach deep into management.
Management is very tough, not easy.
From India, Pune
Well, if you decide to write any letters to your employees, just tell me. I would prepare some letters (with a touch of spice) and give them to you. 😊
From India, Pune
From India, Pune
Hi Indrawn,
I appreciate you for daring to tackle them. I have come across such culture in two companies. I learned a few strategies on my own, and they worked very well for me.
Issues like this do not have ready-made solutions. We have to customize our strategies to suit the location, history, and profile of the people.
You have recently joined that organization. Wait for six months. Do something for them in these six months. They too will have a few issues that have not been addressed by the management for a long time. They should see you as a person who is committed to their needs and problems.
You cannot correct them unless you win them over. Remember, they have developed these attitudes over many years.
They are aware that you are doing your job by asking them to be disciplined. Deep down, they want to stick to the rules, but their ego is not allowing them to yield to a new person.
Do something good for them. Let that be their justification for compromising with their ego.
Yes, it sounds very simple but not easy. However, it never fails, and it takes time too.
The above strategies of mine gave me rich results. They helped to change the culture of organizations that are 30 years old.
Sending memos, etc., are negative discipline strategies that are no longer useful.
Most importantly, you do not need to succeed in your efforts of doing good for them. Your public efforts are enough to project a positive image of yours.
So keep trying... all the best.
Prashanth Shetty
I appreciate you for daring to tackle them. I have come across such culture in two companies. I learned a few strategies on my own, and they worked very well for me.
Issues like this do not have ready-made solutions. We have to customize our strategies to suit the location, history, and profile of the people.
You have recently joined that organization. Wait for six months. Do something for them in these six months. They too will have a few issues that have not been addressed by the management for a long time. They should see you as a person who is committed to their needs and problems.
You cannot correct them unless you win them over. Remember, they have developed these attitudes over many years.
They are aware that you are doing your job by asking them to be disciplined. Deep down, they want to stick to the rules, but their ego is not allowing them to yield to a new person.
Do something good for them. Let that be their justification for compromising with their ego.
Yes, it sounds very simple but not easy. However, it never fails, and it takes time too.
The above strategies of mine gave me rich results. They helped to change the culture of organizations that are 30 years old.
Sending memos, etc., are negative discipline strategies that are no longer useful.
Most importantly, you do not need to succeed in your efforts of doing good for them. Your public efforts are enough to project a positive image of yours.
So keep trying... all the best.
Prashanth Shetty
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