Hi All,
I'm very new to this community. Though I have been actively surfing the threads of this forum for quite a long time now but never participated in any of the discussions. I am working in an MNC power grid manufacturing company as an Operations Manager and been associated with this organization for the last 14 years. So I have no relationship whatsoever with HR. There are able HR persons in our organization to take care of everything. But I have a query. And recently I have come across one such query which was asked to me by one of my nephews and due to unawareness I was unable to give the proper and relevant reply.
My question is what is the difference between submitting joining report and signing appointment letter. Please note I know the basic differences but I'm more interested to know in terms of legal perspective. In our organization also if I'm not wrong we provide appointment letter to a new employee after 3-4 days once he/she joins, however on the very first day he/she has to submit and sign a joining report where no terms and conditions of the employment is mentioned. I'm sorry I don't know if the rule has changed now, but at least that was the prevalent rule.
Now my question is post signing and submitting the Joining Report and before signing appointment letter (the 3-4 days time period I'm talking about) if he/she decides to leave what happens then? Is the employer-employee relationship established?
That is exactly what has happened with my nephew. He joined an organization, submitted joining report duly signed. But before getting appointment letter he resigned. What is his legal liability? Is he supposed to give any amount in lieu off? Please note as per him he didn't sign any form which emphases on Exit Clauses. I know Appointment letter officially declares that an employee is appointed, but does the Joining Report serve the same purpose? Is it also a legal document?
So what's more important? Submitting Joining report or Signing Appointment letter? In Legal perspective what helps establish the employer-employee relationship - Joining Report or Appointment Letter?
Hope to have a discussion on the same. Meanwhile I must tell you that my nephew at last came out this situation and the company stopped pursuing him. But the fundamental question remains same.
What are the takes of the experienced professionals here - we would like to know.
From India, Bengaluru
I'm very new to this community. Though I have been actively surfing the threads of this forum for quite a long time now but never participated in any of the discussions. I am working in an MNC power grid manufacturing company as an Operations Manager and been associated with this organization for the last 14 years. So I have no relationship whatsoever with HR. There are able HR persons in our organization to take care of everything. But I have a query. And recently I have come across one such query which was asked to me by one of my nephews and due to unawareness I was unable to give the proper and relevant reply.
My question is what is the difference between submitting joining report and signing appointment letter. Please note I know the basic differences but I'm more interested to know in terms of legal perspective. In our organization also if I'm not wrong we provide appointment letter to a new employee after 3-4 days once he/she joins, however on the very first day he/she has to submit and sign a joining report where no terms and conditions of the employment is mentioned. I'm sorry I don't know if the rule has changed now, but at least that was the prevalent rule.
Now my question is post signing and submitting the Joining Report and before signing appointment letter (the 3-4 days time period I'm talking about) if he/she decides to leave what happens then? Is the employer-employee relationship established?
That is exactly what has happened with my nephew. He joined an organization, submitted joining report duly signed. But before getting appointment letter he resigned. What is his legal liability? Is he supposed to give any amount in lieu off? Please note as per him he didn't sign any form which emphases on Exit Clauses. I know Appointment letter officially declares that an employee is appointed, but does the Joining Report serve the same purpose? Is it also a legal document?
So what's more important? Submitting Joining report or Signing Appointment letter? In Legal perspective what helps establish the employer-employee relationship - Joining Report or Appointment Letter?
Hope to have a discussion on the same. Meanwhile I must tell you that my nephew at last came out this situation and the company stopped pursuing him. But the fundamental question remains same.
What are the takes of the experienced professionals here - we would like to know.
From India, Bengaluru
Dear Mr Aditya Basu,
In your long post, only the following paragraph merits reply from the members:
That is exactly what has happened with my nephew. He joined an organization, submitted joining report duly signed. But before getting appointment letter he resigned. What is his legal liability? Is he supposed to give any amount in lieu off? Please note as per him he didn't sign any form which emphases on Exit Clauses. I know Appointment letter officially declares that an employee is appointed, but does the Joining Report serve the same purpose? Is it also a legal document?
So what's more important? Submitting Joining report or Signing Appointment letter? In Legal perspective what helps establish the employer-employee relationship - Joining Report or Appointment Letter?
Comments: - Appointment letter is contract between employer and employee under the provisions of Indian Contract Act, 1872 it has valid sanction. If the appointment letter is not issued, then this contract is not established. Since the contract was not established, conditions of contract which are nothing but conditions of employment, did not establish. Against this backdrop, your nephew's abandonment of employment will not have any legal consequence.
As far as Joining Report is concerned, we do not know what was written in the joining report. Nevertheless, if we apply common sense, then it can be inferred that it could be routine administrative procedure of the company. Therefore, it cannot be placed at par with the Appointment Letter.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
7879In your long post, only the following paragraph merits reply from the members:
That is exactly what has happened with my nephew. He joined an organization, submitted joining report duly signed. But before getting appointment letter he resigned. What is his legal liability? Is he supposed to give any amount in lieu off? Please note as per him he didn't sign any form which emphases on Exit Clauses. I know Appointment letter officially declares that an employee is appointed, but does the Joining Report serve the same purpose? Is it also a legal document?
So what's more important? Submitting Joining report or Signing Appointment letter? In Legal perspective what helps establish the employer-employee relationship - Joining Report or Appointment Letter?
Comments: - Appointment letter is contract between employer and employee under the provisions of Indian Contract Act, 1872 it has valid sanction. If the appointment letter is not issued, then this contract is not established. Since the contract was not established, conditions of contract which are nothing but conditions of employment, did not establish. Against this backdrop, your nephew's abandonment of employment will not have any legal consequence.
As far as Joining Report is concerned, we do not know what was written in the joining report. Nevertheless, if we apply common sense, then it can be inferred that it could be routine administrative procedure of the company. Therefore, it cannot be placed at par with the Appointment Letter.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Hi Mr. Divekar,
Sincerely sorry for such a long post. And thanks for pointing out the length of my query. I wasn't aware of the rule of this community, so started with a long introduction. However thank you for your quintessential comments. So coming back to the topic merely signing a joining report doesn't establish the employer-employee relationship, right?
Even I'm not fully aware of the contents of the joining report he signed that day but what I have understood during my discussions with him was that it was some sort of ''joining today on.....at this position...''. But one thing he clearly mentioned that no terms and conditions were mentioned there.
Even I have seen the joining report in our organization as well and the format is a standard one I guess and it states the date of reporting, position and few other things, but not very elaborate in nature. However the Appointment Letter/Employment Agreement of our company consists of 36-38 pages and in detailed.
Pardon me for my illiteracy on the subject, but on the day of joining we normally generate SAP Ids for new hires along with some other very important accesses. But appointment letters are given only after 3-4 days. So even if we give the new hires access to some of the very sensitive information we have internally on the very first 3-4 days you mean to say unless he signs the appointment letter he/she is not officially appointed even though he/she signs the joining report on the first day itself?
I'm sorry I can not go and ask our HR the same question which I can ask you here to have a better understanding on the subject. Why do we do that then? Isn't it compromising with company security features then?
Sorry for another longer post loaded with so many questions! And once again I hope to get response on my academic query.
From India, Bengaluru
Sincerely sorry for such a long post. And thanks for pointing out the length of my query. I wasn't aware of the rule of this community, so started with a long introduction. However thank you for your quintessential comments. So coming back to the topic merely signing a joining report doesn't establish the employer-employee relationship, right?
Even I'm not fully aware of the contents of the joining report he signed that day but what I have understood during my discussions with him was that it was some sort of ''joining today on.....at this position...''. But one thing he clearly mentioned that no terms and conditions were mentioned there.
Even I have seen the joining report in our organization as well and the format is a standard one I guess and it states the date of reporting, position and few other things, but not very elaborate in nature. However the Appointment Letter/Employment Agreement of our company consists of 36-38 pages and in detailed.
Pardon me for my illiteracy on the subject, but on the day of joining we normally generate SAP Ids for new hires along with some other very important accesses. But appointment letters are given only after 3-4 days. So even if we give the new hires access to some of the very sensitive information we have internally on the very first 3-4 days you mean to say unless he signs the appointment letter he/she is not officially appointed even though he/she signs the joining report on the first day itself?
I'm sorry I can not go and ask our HR the same question which I can ask you here to have a better understanding on the subject. Why do we do that then? Isn't it compromising with company security features then?
Sorry for another longer post loaded with so many questions! And once again I hope to get response on my academic query.
From India, Bengaluru
Dear Mr Aditya Basu,
Well gentleman, notwithstanding my factual explanation in my previous reply, you have come up with the same query again. Therefore, now the situation merits feedback to you rather than commenting on the issue.
Your second post demands shifting of attention from the issue to the person i.e. you. Management science teaches us to separate persons from the issues. Your second posts forces us to do other way round.
You have taken over your nephew's problem on yourself. Since he is also a working professional, you could have told him to write the post on his own, in his words. Your post brings out paternalistic side of your personality. Your disquietude is a result of your paternalism.
Going further, it appears that you have worked for long time in your organisation. Therefore, you would like to see everything from the prism of the administrative practices followed in your company. Every company has their own way of working. Nevertheless, your over-exposure to your current organisation has muddled your thinking and has increased magnitude of disquietude little more.
Next is about your both the posts. These are too verbose and verbosity has killed the spirit of the query. This reminds us famous English proverb, missing wood for the trees. In the jungle of words, we had to hunt for your query! From abandonment of employment, you have digressed to security breach that could happen because of working for couple of days and then quitting the employment. Well, there are information security experts in each company. Let them bother about it. There is a limit to which we can allow ourselves to perturbed because of other's problems.
Lastly gentleman, person of your stature is expected to read between the lines. Far from reading between the lines, it appears that you have not even read the lines of my reply. Possibly this shortcoming could create hurdles to your future career.
My comments given in the previous post hold good and there is nothing to add further. My comments in this post, may sound trenchant. Nevertheless, your second post has forced me to add elements of trenchancy in my reply.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
Well gentleman, notwithstanding my factual explanation in my previous reply, you have come up with the same query again. Therefore, now the situation merits feedback to you rather than commenting on the issue.
Your second post demands shifting of attention from the issue to the person i.e. you. Management science teaches us to separate persons from the issues. Your second posts forces us to do other way round.
You have taken over your nephew's problem on yourself. Since he is also a working professional, you could have told him to write the post on his own, in his words. Your post brings out paternalistic side of your personality. Your disquietude is a result of your paternalism.
Going further, it appears that you have worked for long time in your organisation. Therefore, you would like to see everything from the prism of the administrative practices followed in your company. Every company has their own way of working. Nevertheless, your over-exposure to your current organisation has muddled your thinking and has increased magnitude of disquietude little more.
Next is about your both the posts. These are too verbose and verbosity has killed the spirit of the query. This reminds us famous English proverb, missing wood for the trees. In the jungle of words, we had to hunt for your query! From abandonment of employment, you have digressed to security breach that could happen because of working for couple of days and then quitting the employment. Well, there are information security experts in each company. Let them bother about it. There is a limit to which we can allow ourselves to perturbed because of other's problems.
Lastly gentleman, person of your stature is expected to read between the lines. Far from reading between the lines, it appears that you have not even read the lines of my reply. Possibly this shortcoming could create hurdles to your future career.
My comments given in the previous post hold good and there is nothing to add further. My comments in this post, may sound trenchant. Nevertheless, your second post has forced me to add elements of trenchancy in my reply.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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