Hii Friends,
Before you take any decision, You shold have proper documents showing his submission of the fake document at the time of his joining.
So first, you should write a referance ckeck letter to is previous employer & eed to track a performance of the person.
Now, your decision will depend on the referance check.. If he is hard working & smart performer you can give him a chance..... Before you fire him just keep one thing in yr mind that you might have forced him to join yr company as early as possible thats the reason for his submission of fake certificates...
Regards,
Prakash Bhutaiya
From India, Mumbai
Before you take any decision, You shold have proper documents showing his submission of the fake document at the time of his joining.
So first, you should write a referance ckeck letter to is previous employer & eed to track a performance of the person.
Now, your decision will depend on the referance check.. If he is hard working & smart performer you can give him a chance..... Before you fire him just keep one thing in yr mind that you might have forced him to join yr company as early as possible thats the reason for his submission of fake certificates...
Regards,
Prakash Bhutaiya
From India, Mumbai
First of all, this is a matter of integrity, management is to decide.
Employers are showing hurry deciding the date DOJ, the without understanding candidates releiving from his/her employer. Candidate should be sufficient time come back with releiving date.
if there is problem with his releiving advise him to pay necessary notice period amount and join. your employer can buy if candidate joining important and seek proper releiving, this a common practice industry.
I feel strongly discourage this kind of activity. He/her should be shown gate. It should communicated all employees that the company dicourages and punishes for such wrong doing.
From India, Hyderabad
54Employers are showing hurry deciding the date DOJ, the without understanding candidates releiving from his/her employer. Candidate should be sufficient time come back with releiving date.
if there is problem with his releiving advise him to pay necessary notice period amount and join. your employer can buy if candidate joining important and seek proper releiving, this a common practice industry.
I feel strongly discourage this kind of activity. He/her should be shown gate. It should communicated all employees that the company dicourages and punishes for such wrong doing.
From India, Hyderabad
Hello Trinity,:) it seems like you have encountered a delima.
Possibly :?:the first thing to consider is having a meeting with the associate and ask them why they provided you the information the way they did. They might have justification.
However it is good to remember that the best indication of future performance is past performance.:icon9:
I believe in second chances. Sometimes your gut will be the best indicator as to which path to take. Good luck.
Dr. Marc:-D
PS 63:7
From United States, Calhoun
Possibly :?:the first thing to consider is having a meeting with the associate and ask them why they provided you the information the way they did. They might have justification.
However it is good to remember that the best indication of future performance is past performance.:icon9:
I believe in second chances. Sometimes your gut will be the best indicator as to which path to take. Good luck.
Dr. Marc:-D
PS 63:7
From United States, Calhoun
Dear All,
I have gone through the comments and opinions of all on the subject of fake documents, papers connected with the employment.
Having conducted the antecedent verification since 5 years for 100s of employees for pre and post employment, I have across cases involving forgery,criminal offence, misappropriation of company or customers money. It is terribly shocking to find that the contents of stated profile and actual facts in the resume mismatch in many instances. As a HR consultant and practitioner it is my call of the duty on antecedent verification to completely analyse the full profile of the candidates particulars in employment, education and life styleetc. We also recommend different alternatives to the client based on the findings in our verification process.
Our recommendations willl be on the following lines.
1. Whether his/her attitude towards the customers , colleagues, superiors is on the right proportions.
3. The career breaks or progress is consistent or inconsistent in the relevant industry or otherwise.
4. Money handling or integrity in the business and with the customers .
5. The originality of the documents.
6. His/her fitment in light above background.
The HR chief of the client normally takes the call to see the importance of the position or role of the new employee vis requirements in HR. When indulged in the fake or forgery of the papers he or she is counselled with the relevant details and the concerned emplolyee is given severe warning with the clear cut move of the company. In any case the severity of the punishment or decision will depend on the position or requirement of the Human capital.
As a consultant we recommend to do away with the concerned employee if found and proved to have indulged in the above acts. I am of the opinion that personally we all may not like to take a drastic action such as sacking but we should act above the board as we represent in larger interests of the company.
Thanks and regards.
V. Rangarajan.
From India, Pune
I have gone through the comments and opinions of all on the subject of fake documents, papers connected with the employment.
Having conducted the antecedent verification since 5 years for 100s of employees for pre and post employment, I have across cases involving forgery,criminal offence, misappropriation of company or customers money. It is terribly shocking to find that the contents of stated profile and actual facts in the resume mismatch in many instances. As a HR consultant and practitioner it is my call of the duty on antecedent verification to completely analyse the full profile of the candidates particulars in employment, education and life styleetc. We also recommend different alternatives to the client based on the findings in our verification process.
Our recommendations willl be on the following lines.
1. Whether his/her attitude towards the customers , colleagues, superiors is on the right proportions.
3. The career breaks or progress is consistent or inconsistent in the relevant industry or otherwise.
4. Money handling or integrity in the business and with the customers .
5. The originality of the documents.
6. His/her fitment in light above background.
The HR chief of the client normally takes the call to see the importance of the position or role of the new employee vis requirements in HR. When indulged in the fake or forgery of the papers he or she is counselled with the relevant details and the concerned emplolyee is given severe warning with the clear cut move of the company. In any case the severity of the punishment or decision will depend on the position or requirement of the Human capital.
As a consultant we recommend to do away with the concerned employee if found and proved to have indulged in the above acts. I am of the opinion that personally we all may not like to take a drastic action such as sacking but we should act above the board as we represent in larger interests of the company.
Thanks and regards.
V. Rangarajan.
From India, Pune
I would not like to have on board a person who has entered the organization on a false note. It does not speak well of the concerned person.
I would have a private chat with him, get him to admit the forgery he has committed and ask him to resign and leave.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
I would have a private chat with him, get him to admit the forgery he has committed and ask him to resign and leave.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
Forging is an offence. But if the employee has proof of submitting the Resignation letter as per agreed terms, then HR fraternity should not insist of Relieving order. In many companies problems are created by HR people. ( Foe some blood may boil). I am sorry, but be fair while making rules.
If sufficient proof is available for submitting the resignation letter with stipulated notice period, then take a written appology for forging a document and allow him to continue in job. But the whole operation should be done very confidentially. If it leaks out the concerned man will leave the company soon.
From India, Bangalore
If sufficient proof is available for submitting the resignation letter with stipulated notice period, then take a written appology for forging a document and allow him to continue in job. But the whole operation should be done very confidentially. If it leaks out the concerned man will leave the company soon.
From India, Bangalore
Dont analyse the problem in the employ or HR perspective,
What are reasons for doing the verification of docs by third party?, definitely your company have a policy regarding employs hiring and firing. stick to it in letter and spirit.
dont unnecesarily get into moral and other issues which cannot be justified in all the cases. Finally leave the it to the deciding authority with your impartial comments.
From India, Hyderabad
What are reasons for doing the verification of docs by third party?, definitely your company have a policy regarding employs hiring and firing. stick to it in letter and spirit.
dont unnecesarily get into moral and other issues which cannot be justified in all the cases. Finally leave the it to the deciding authority with your impartial comments.
From India, Hyderabad
Hi Trinity,
In case you let this guy continue with your company, it will pass a very negative message to the market that your company is not acting on issues of receiving fake letters. This is a breach of trust, and no relation - either personal or professional will stand strong if there is no trust that exists. Even if you send a strong warning, everytime you see him or hear his name, this episode of "Submitting fake letters" will be flashed in your mind.
How have you handled such cases before? If this is treated as an exception, how will you justify your actions to any further cases such as these?
In my opinion - you must ask him to leave. It sends a strong message that your company does not tolerate such issues. Remember the "Reinforcement theory of Motivation" - Behaviour is a function of its consequences. If you let him go with a warning, there is no guarantee that he will not repeat the same later... may be with a different employer...
In case he had walked in to your company with only a copy of resignation mail and the chain mail following the same (if any), you could still have accepted him simply because your company wanted this guy to join early - I am sure you would have not waited for him to complete his full 2 month notice period and then join you.
Cheers... Vinay
From India, New Delhi
In case you let this guy continue with your company, it will pass a very negative message to the market that your company is not acting on issues of receiving fake letters. This is a breach of trust, and no relation - either personal or professional will stand strong if there is no trust that exists. Even if you send a strong warning, everytime you see him or hear his name, this episode of "Submitting fake letters" will be flashed in your mind.
How have you handled such cases before? If this is treated as an exception, how will you justify your actions to any further cases such as these?
In my opinion - you must ask him to leave. It sends a strong message that your company does not tolerate such issues. Remember the "Reinforcement theory of Motivation" - Behaviour is a function of its consequences. If you let him go with a warning, there is no guarantee that he will not repeat the same later... may be with a different employer...
In case he had walked in to your company with only a copy of resignation mail and the chain mail following the same (if any), you could still have accepted him simply because your company wanted this guy to join early - I am sure you would have not waited for him to complete his full 2 month notice period and then join you.
Cheers... Vinay
From India, New Delhi
This is common in IT industry. why blame the poor guys/gals. companies themselves cook the resumes to get projects from the clients and even bag the orders. i had come across from big MNC's doing it. so what harm does this poor people have done. try to judge there work and evaluate there performance. give some KT required. when people sincerely ask for opportunity at least as fresher they ask for experience though they have good working knowledge.
so the prospective organizations are to be blamed which are indirectly creating this kind of situations.
From India, Hyderabad
so the prospective organizations are to be blamed which are indirectly creating this kind of situations.
From India, Hyderabad
My dear Trinity Morpheus
Pardon my late response.
For the past few days I have just been reading all the posts in your thread.
I feel upset for a number of reasons.
First of all, you state your proposed line of action, thus :
"Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediated effect for "Forging employment document". "
then, you seek others' opinion :
"Would like to understand your view on the same."
(As if you would really understand or care), because everytime someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it, and keep justifying your line of action.
What for do you ask other's opinion, then ?
In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order, many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Ghenghiz Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.
My dear friend - could not you have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it ?
Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company ??
Pardon me, if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack "the killing instinct").
But, you my friend, are the police, judge, jury and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - More than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick !!!
"A company such as ours has an obligation to to adhere to the most exacting standards of ......."
" .... protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd’s legal interests and sound reputation..."
Nice n Sweet words !!
How I wish these words have come a few months earlier !!
Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders ??
If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government ??
What it means is - IT Companies can get way with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringest of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do" !!!
Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters etc which are of major importance) is a "forgery" or a "fake" ?
Hope you understand the difference.
It is quite possible that HR person of her previous organization have helped her, "I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. but if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued." The grateful ex-colleague would say, "Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir !!" I am sure, many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.
Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to.
I don't know if you are aware of this or not ?
Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.
Perhaps, none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely; or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.
I think all those pilots, declaring themselves "sick" and producing 'fake' medical sertificates should immediately be put inside the jail ... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.
The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle <link updated to site home> ( Search On Cite | Search On Google )
The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Business | Deposits reek of forgery
I remember the words of someone, some centuries earlier; "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
I guess, you will claim that your company meets the compliances of Law, including those under the companies Act, Taxation and Labour laws, files all the hundreds of returns in time, maintains and updates those hundreds of Registers required by law, pays the hundreds of challans under various govt. provision WITHIN TIME and CORRECTLY. You would expect me to believe you. Ask any good consultant (or related government authority) and he will admit that it is practically impossible to comply with all the rules and regulations. Even PSU can not comply perfectly with Entry Taxes (state govt), Professional taxes (state Govt), Excise, IT, CPF, CST, VAT etc. Quite often, penalties are charged and paid, but, none is branded as 'thief.'
Anyway, it is your company, it is your take. You decide and follow-up with whatever you wish. You need not accept anyone's opinion - as you had done in your earlier posts.
But if you had been genuinely seeking opinion, then I have given you mine - honest, frank and candid.
(Please Note : My above opinions, are restricted to the issue under discussion; and in no way reflect my personal opinion or bias against you. :icon1:)
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
Pardon my late response.
For the past few days I have just been reading all the posts in your thread.
I feel upset for a number of reasons.
First of all, you state your proposed line of action, thus :
"Now - I am of the opinion that he/she should be sacked with immediated effect for "Forging employment document". "
then, you seek others' opinion :
"Would like to understand your view on the same."
(As if you would really understand or care), because everytime someone offers a contradicting view, you immediately run a steam-roller over it, and keep justifying your line of action.
What for do you ask other's opinion, then ?
In fact, you went ahead with what you intended to do and annexed a copy of the Termination Order, many times, as if to display your drafting skills (after having sought assistance in drafting an order). Or perhaps to exhibit your fairness - like Timur Lane (or was it Ghenghiz Khan) who showed kindness to a lady by taking out her kid from a ditch - by skewering the little infant on his long spear.
My dear friend - could not you have simply asked her for a resignation letter, and then accepted it ?
Like you may be doing to many 'innocents' (those who have not committed "such heinous" crime) when you 'downsize' your company ??
Pardon me, if you feel hurt. Maybe I am very ignorant and foolish on such issues (and also lack "the killing instinct").
But, you my friend, are the police, judge, jury and executioner. You are also an evangelist on 'corporate ethics' and God's angel of virgin purity. So many roles to play - More than Priyanka Chopra in her latest flick !!!
"A company such as ours has an obligation to to adhere to the most exacting standards of ......."
" .... protection of GamCom IT Services Pvt Ltd’s legal interests and sound reputation..."
Nice n Sweet words !!
How I wish these words have come a few months earlier !!
Haven't some IT companies been indicted by world bodies for adopting unfair/unethical means to promote their business; to secure orders ??
If I have my facts right, was not there a VERY big Indian IT company with an equally charismatic Chief, who is cooling his heels somewhere in forced confinement by the government ??
What it means is - IT Companies can get way with Ethics, but their employees must stick to the stringest of Ethics. "Do what I say, don't do what I do" !!!
Whether a minor document like the Relieving letter (and not the CV, Educational Qualifications documents, Experience letters etc which are of major importance) is a "forgery" or a "fake" ?
Hope you understand the difference.
It is quite possible that HR person of her previous organization have helped her, "I will try to help you by giving you a Relieving Order at my own risk. but if there is a problem, I will deny that it has ever been issued." The grateful ex-colleague would say, "Trust me, Sir. I shall never put you into trouble for my sake. If caught, I will confess that I forged it. Thank you so much, Sir !!" I am sure, many of my friends would agree that it is a scenario too familiar to people who have been long in this profession.
Moreover, in case of forgeries, when there is no large pecuniary or other substantial loss involved, prosecution is unreasonable and never resorted to.
I don't know if you are aware of this or not ?
Maybe you have not come across any schoolboy who produced a 'forged' report card at home. Parents do not call for criminal action or expel them from the house.
Perhaps, none of your employees ever reported 'sick' falsely; or produced a 'false medical report' when they needed leave badly and management was not willing to extend or grant leave.
I think all those pilots, declaring themselves "sick" and producing 'fake' medical sertificates should immediately be put inside the jail ... to give company to IT barons 8) who never do anything 'wrong'.
The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle <link updated to site home> ( Search On Cite | Search On Google )
The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Business | Deposits reek of forgery
I remember the words of someone, some centuries earlier; "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
I guess, you will claim that your company meets the compliances of Law, including those under the companies Act, Taxation and Labour laws, files all the hundreds of returns in time, maintains and updates those hundreds of Registers required by law, pays the hundreds of challans under various govt. provision WITHIN TIME and CORRECTLY. You would expect me to believe you. Ask any good consultant (or related government authority) and he will admit that it is practically impossible to comply with all the rules and regulations. Even PSU can not comply perfectly with Entry Taxes (state govt), Professional taxes (state Govt), Excise, IT, CPF, CST, VAT etc. Quite often, penalties are charged and paid, but, none is branded as 'thief.'
Anyway, it is your company, it is your take. You decide and follow-up with whatever you wish. You need not accept anyone's opinion - as you had done in your earlier posts.
But if you had been genuinely seeking opinion, then I have given you mine - honest, frank and candid.
(Please Note : My above opinions, are restricted to the issue under discussion; and in no way reflect my personal opinion or bias against you. :icon1:)
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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