hi frds,
So, at least, it is settled that only public authorities have the RTI option. if Labour Commissioner/ALC/DLC/LO is approached, he may direct the company to give a reply. But whether the company (which was adamant in terminating the employee and not listening to him) obliges this is another question, because it will lead another angle of third party information, where the third party is entitled to appeal against PIO.
Normally, only workman (case of individual workman, who was terminated) can approach authorities under ID Act. In the case of executives, the scope for intervention is limited. Participation in such negotiations (conciliation meetings to be specific) are not compulsory on the part of companies, and boss, you may be aware of how companies (esp. pvt) manage labour departments.
Social drinking and cocktail parties are part of corporate life today (does not mean I support greatly), and moderation is the key. It happens when companies celebrate their achievements in production, annual get together with its employees, important business meetings with key accounts/customers (because as you pour alcohol, the eyes of the businessmen is on the sheer profits as you said). and if one drinks too much and spoils the party, the reaction on the part of businessman is understandable, that he may direct the HR person to throw him out. HR may have sympathy with the poor fellow, but has no option. because, the company is not running a charity, but is for business and profits. he has to execute the management order, and cannot plead with his HR philosophy or psychology. anyway, people including HR working in your company are lucky, since even if such mistakes happen, they need not worry.
We all have concern for the affected party in this case, but as well concerned about the legal/behavioural aspects about it as professionals. if the employee gets any favour from labour dept/court/negotiations, well. we too are happy. may be someone can arrange another party! all the best.
From India, Bangalore
23So, at least, it is settled that only public authorities have the RTI option. if Labour Commissioner/ALC/DLC/LO is approached, he may direct the company to give a reply. But whether the company (which was adamant in terminating the employee and not listening to him) obliges this is another question, because it will lead another angle of third party information, where the third party is entitled to appeal against PIO.
Normally, only workman (case of individual workman, who was terminated) can approach authorities under ID Act. In the case of executives, the scope for intervention is limited. Participation in such negotiations (conciliation meetings to be specific) are not compulsory on the part of companies, and boss, you may be aware of how companies (esp. pvt) manage labour departments.
Social drinking and cocktail parties are part of corporate life today (does not mean I support greatly), and moderation is the key. It happens when companies celebrate their achievements in production, annual get together with its employees, important business meetings with key accounts/customers (because as you pour alcohol, the eyes of the businessmen is on the sheer profits as you said). and if one drinks too much and spoils the party, the reaction on the part of businessman is understandable, that he may direct the HR person to throw him out. HR may have sympathy with the poor fellow, but has no option. because, the company is not running a charity, but is for business and profits. he has to execute the management order, and cannot plead with his HR philosophy or psychology. anyway, people including HR working in your company are lucky, since even if such mistakes happen, they need not worry.
We all have concern for the affected party in this case, but as well concerned about the legal/behavioural aspects about it as professionals. if the employee gets any favour from labour dept/court/negotiations, well. we too are happy. may be someone can arrange another party! all the best.
From India, Bangalore
Hi,
Mr Sajan,
Take a stand, first. RTI holds good for both Public & Private companies. Only, scope is narrow for PVT companies, and often indirect approach needs to be taken. We both agreed, please refer your earlier post .
My friend, you know something, when labor commission interfere, pvt companies provide information, they don't opt to challenge because, why should they pay for a non- productive case? We all go by what is legally correct & not morally. But the bitter fact is any business cant be successful for long time if they are immoral reason is they need to depend a lot in society & government.
Do we stand on same platform in this context?
Regarding , management's view, we can try....HR department have authority upto some extent......If due to any reason we fail to convince, cant we join the party without a glass of wine? Else people will call as hypocrite Professional not Human Resource Professional.
But, if we don't try for a genuine reason, that day is not to far, when employee will seek Trade Union, Staff association!
THOSE WHO DONT FAIL, THEY DONT TRY! are we in same stand?
From India, Mumbai
Mr Sajan,
Take a stand, first. RTI holds good for both Public & Private companies. Only, scope is narrow for PVT companies, and often indirect approach needs to be taken. We both agreed, please refer your earlier post .
My friend, you know something, when labor commission interfere, pvt companies provide information, they don't opt to challenge because, why should they pay for a non- productive case? We all go by what is legally correct & not morally. But the bitter fact is any business cant be successful for long time if they are immoral reason is they need to depend a lot in society & government.
Do we stand on same platform in this context?
Regarding , management's view, we can try....HR department have authority upto some extent......If due to any reason we fail to convince, cant we join the party without a glass of wine? Else people will call as hypocrite Professional not Human Resource Professional.
But, if we don't try for a genuine reason, that day is not to far, when employee will seek Trade Union, Staff association!
THOSE WHO DONT FAIL, THEY DONT TRY! are we in same stand?
From India, Mumbai
If any hr don’t join a party, without a glass of wine, can any one force him/her ? No one is stopping them to drink at home or bar? PLEASE THINK IN A COOL HEAD.....
From India, Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Hi
Mr VK SAJAN,
First you were with stand, that what ever happens, RTI holds only for Public Companies, later RTI holds good up to some limited EXTENT for PVT companies, but not for termination cause & case will be limited to only civil court, then at last your stand was Labor commission can ask for a reason of termination, and information can be obtained from labor commission via RTI if they posses the information but also PVT companies have an option to appeal against PIO.
Well sir with due request, I would like to inform you that we still have 18 ways to break such adamant PVT companies legally. Father also have a father, known as grandfather. I can share that too, perhaps again you will change your stand then( Just kidding don't take personally).
You, know something the person who posses knowledge of at least 500 ways to increase revenue & reduce cost by win -win resolution & 450 out of it well proved/tested, which is only known by 5%-10% of Industries leaders in current days( and they don't share this information), some how they know 50 ways to grab neck of a PVT companies & to break adamant PVT companies. Its not that our laws are weak, but we are weak. I am like a leech, who add up with leaders of the market & sucks up knowledge /strategies from them. Apply them ,practically, test it & keep it for future as assets or capital.
Its not system is corrupted sir, but we don't know how to survive in that system & reach targets diplomatically. Still this world or system whatever you wish to call is working fine, because at least 5% good people (including me) are present in this world. We have to decide in which side we would like to stay and which path we would like to follow a short cut or a straight , lengthy but correct way.
Everywhere there are challenges, and we fail too, but if we get scared due to our failure or challenges then we can never win our battle sir. We all have our own battle to fight. You know something sir, no one have need for a negotiation, but still we create a need & make that person go for negotiation, this is BUSINESS.
YOU HUMAN RESOURCE PROFESSIONALS ARE RESPECTED IN THE MARKET, PLEASE DONT LOSE IT. ITS AN ASSET FOR YOU ALL ,RATHER FOR US ALL!
People call me or any other guy like me ' A Poisonous Snake', reason is its hardly matter whether we join a party or not, no one care, its hardly matter when we approach someone we love with a job application , no one care. BUT WHEN THEY NEED US FOR THEIR PROFESSIONAL TARGETS TO MEET, WE (A GUY LIKE ME) MUST BE PRESENT. OUR ROLE IS LIKE A GUN, PEOPLE LIKE TO HAVE ONE, SHOW IT TO OTHERS, BUT ONLY FIRE WHEN THERE IS A GENUINE NEED OR RISK! NO ONE CARE, FOR US WHEN THERE IS NO NEED, USELESS PEICE OF METAL.
So, what ever I have said, don't take personally because it is highly professional, sometimes I hate myself too but still we live. I am not at all a harmful guy but I am very diplomatic, learned something from you all guys, sir. Think in a cool & calm head whatever I said. Over & Out , I am out of this discussion.
Thanks & Regards
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
Mr VK SAJAN,
First you were with stand, that what ever happens, RTI holds only for Public Companies, later RTI holds good up to some limited EXTENT for PVT companies, but not for termination cause & case will be limited to only civil court, then at last your stand was Labor commission can ask for a reason of termination, and information can be obtained from labor commission via RTI if they posses the information but also PVT companies have an option to appeal against PIO.
Well sir with due request, I would like to inform you that we still have 18 ways to break such adamant PVT companies legally. Father also have a father, known as grandfather. I can share that too, perhaps again you will change your stand then( Just kidding don't take personally).
You, know something the person who posses knowledge of at least 500 ways to increase revenue & reduce cost by win -win resolution & 450 out of it well proved/tested, which is only known by 5%-10% of Industries leaders in current days( and they don't share this information), some how they know 50 ways to grab neck of a PVT companies & to break adamant PVT companies. Its not that our laws are weak, but we are weak. I am like a leech, who add up with leaders of the market & sucks up knowledge /strategies from them. Apply them ,practically, test it & keep it for future as assets or capital.
Its not system is corrupted sir, but we don't know how to survive in that system & reach targets diplomatically. Still this world or system whatever you wish to call is working fine, because at least 5% good people (including me) are present in this world. We have to decide in which side we would like to stay and which path we would like to follow a short cut or a straight , lengthy but correct way.
Everywhere there are challenges, and we fail too, but if we get scared due to our failure or challenges then we can never win our battle sir. We all have our own battle to fight. You know something sir, no one have need for a negotiation, but still we create a need & make that person go for negotiation, this is BUSINESS.
YOU HUMAN RESOURCE PROFESSIONALS ARE RESPECTED IN THE MARKET, PLEASE DONT LOSE IT. ITS AN ASSET FOR YOU ALL ,RATHER FOR US ALL!
People call me or any other guy like me ' A Poisonous Snake', reason is its hardly matter whether we join a party or not, no one care, its hardly matter when we approach someone we love with a job application , no one care. BUT WHEN THEY NEED US FOR THEIR PROFESSIONAL TARGETS TO MEET, WE (A GUY LIKE ME) MUST BE PRESENT. OUR ROLE IS LIKE A GUN, PEOPLE LIKE TO HAVE ONE, SHOW IT TO OTHERS, BUT ONLY FIRE WHEN THERE IS A GENUINE NEED OR RISK! NO ONE CARE, FOR US WHEN THERE IS NO NEED, USELESS PEICE OF METAL.
So, what ever I have said, don't take personally because it is highly professional, sometimes I hate myself too but still we live. I am not at all a harmful guy but I am very diplomatic, learned something from you all guys, sir. Think in a cool & calm head whatever I said. Over & Out , I am out of this discussion.
Thanks & Regards
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
Dear Gaurav,
Though your act is of misbehaviour we need to understand whether it is on the premises of the company or outside the premises. If it is out side the premises of the company then they have no right to terminate your service for misbehaviour.Your management could have discussed,counselled you and giving you a Memo / Warning.
If the Act is not on the premises of the company then they have no right to directly terminate your services.
You can consult an Advocate and send a legal notice to the company to re instate you on work.
However taking into consideration your future career,it is advisable to meet your Seniors / HR Manager of the company,discuss with them,apologize for the act again. Keeping in mind that in future if you are looking for a job in other company then your current company should not give negative verification report. So please settle this matter in peace for your future career.
Regards,
Sumeet
From India, Mumbai
Though your act is of misbehaviour we need to understand whether it is on the premises of the company or outside the premises. If it is out side the premises of the company then they have no right to terminate your service for misbehaviour.Your management could have discussed,counselled you and giving you a Memo / Warning.
If the Act is not on the premises of the company then they have no right to directly terminate your services.
You can consult an Advocate and send a legal notice to the company to re instate you on work.
However taking into consideration your future career,it is advisable to meet your Seniors / HR Manager of the company,discuss with them,apologize for the act again. Keeping in mind that in future if you are looking for a job in other company then your current company should not give negative verification report. So please settle this matter in peace for your future career.
Regards,
Sumeet
From India, Mumbai
Sovik Bhattachaerjee,
You have very little idea of labour laws and laws of this country in general, or a very high opinion of your knowledge, even when it is not matching with the actual law, decisions of the courts and the ground reality.
You have been arguing with everyone who has posted anything on this thread and most of what you say is completely wrong and misleading to the original poster and to any person who reads the thread afterwards. The only thing that you have said right (but it is lost in the complete deluge of words you have let loose) is that he needs to check whether his appointment letter actually has a clause to allow the employer to terminate him without notice. It is possible that it may have been missed out.
As for the rest of your posts, RTI does not apply to the organisation he is working for. Nothing you say will change the fact. Your suggestion will only end up creating more problem for the terminated employee. The rest of your triad against each of the members of this site (including some very seniors) is meaningless as we need to look at the law of the land and nothing else. It does not matter (for example) where Hr originated. If the law does not allow or require a thing to be done, then that is it.
The final fact of the original problem posted by Mr. Gaurav is that he has very little ground to challange the decision of the company. His only way out was a request for reconsideration with a promise to ensure such a thing never happens. That is already closed as the company does not with to entertain any such request from him.
Please stop putting more posts on this.
You have put several things. Readers (hopefully) be able to follow it to the original act / ruling and make their own decision as to the applicability of the same.
From India, Mumbai
You have very little idea of labour laws and laws of this country in general, or a very high opinion of your knowledge, even when it is not matching with the actual law, decisions of the courts and the ground reality.
You have been arguing with everyone who has posted anything on this thread and most of what you say is completely wrong and misleading to the original poster and to any person who reads the thread afterwards. The only thing that you have said right (but it is lost in the complete deluge of words you have let loose) is that he needs to check whether his appointment letter actually has a clause to allow the employer to terminate him without notice. It is possible that it may have been missed out.
As for the rest of your posts, RTI does not apply to the organisation he is working for. Nothing you say will change the fact. Your suggestion will only end up creating more problem for the terminated employee. The rest of your triad against each of the members of this site (including some very seniors) is meaningless as we need to look at the law of the land and nothing else. It does not matter (for example) where Hr originated. If the law does not allow or require a thing to be done, then that is it.
The final fact of the original problem posted by Mr. Gaurav is that he has very little ground to challange the decision of the company. His only way out was a request for reconsideration with a promise to ensure such a thing never happens. That is already closed as the company does not with to entertain any such request from him.
Please stop putting more posts on this.
You have put several things. Readers (hopefully) be able to follow it to the original act / ruling and make their own decision as to the applicability of the same.
From India, Mumbai
Dear Colleagues,
Instead of suggesting any steps to the mailer,we have indulged into unnecessarily discussions.No body has been able to suggest any concrete solution to the problem.I agree with Sh Saswata Banerjee that we have had more general discussions rather than on labour laws.But I must hesitatingly appreciate the patience of Sh Sovik Bhattachaerjee in putting his ideas in very very lengthy and repeated mails.I think 5-6 pages discussions on this thread in a simple query was unwarranted.
I would like to give him one advice in respect of his query that since he has hardly put in 4 months of service and has made a blunder (not a mistake), he should try his luck somewhere instead of trying to get back to the company.I would like to repeat the mail of one of the members who said if you even get an entry in the same company, you will have not a good time there. I have come across the behavioral pattern of some persons, who are very apologist on their wrongdoing but repeat the same behavior. I hope, he is not a such person.
I am sorry if my writing has been hurtful for anybody.
BS Kalsi
Member since Aug 2011
From India, Mumbai
Instead of suggesting any steps to the mailer,we have indulged into unnecessarily discussions.No body has been able to suggest any concrete solution to the problem.I agree with Sh Saswata Banerjee that we have had more general discussions rather than on labour laws.But I must hesitatingly appreciate the patience of Sh Sovik Bhattachaerjee in putting his ideas in very very lengthy and repeated mails.I think 5-6 pages discussions on this thread in a simple query was unwarranted.
I would like to give him one advice in respect of his query that since he has hardly put in 4 months of service and has made a blunder (not a mistake), he should try his luck somewhere instead of trying to get back to the company.I would like to repeat the mail of one of the members who said if you even get an entry in the same company, you will have not a good time there. I have come across the behavioral pattern of some persons, who are very apologist on their wrongdoing but repeat the same behavior. I hope, he is not a such person.
I am sorry if my writing has been hurtful for anybody.
BS Kalsi
Member since Aug 2011
From India, Mumbai
Hi
Mr Saswata Banarjee,
I respect your views & comment. With due request sir, I have a question to you, what is the reason behind taking my name when I had clearly mentioned I am going out of this discussion? Please clarify.
I have heard about you a lot, especially about your 'Labor laws & compliance Audits' & respect you sir . Well, if you had said this before, then we could had a discussion in details, I was looking for a senior & mature person like you, but not now. FYI, RTI hold good for labor commission, or any public body right ? Labor commission can direct a Pvt company to provide a reply or a reason behind a termination, am I correct? Only, pvt companies have a right to appeal against PIO (Third party information), that can be defended too, since you perform, labor laws & compliance audits, I am sure you are well aware of it (I hope I had said something about trade secret/ or losing competitive edge in the market. This is just one of 18 ways, sir. Anyway, I agree with you that, we follow whatever is correct as per laws of land & nothing else. That's it.
Please don't involve me in this discussion any further or take my name sir, that's a humble request to you , else would forced to show all the ways /options legally available. That wont be good , as it would be like showing trum cards we have got. You, know sir, something , I am a guy, who went to high court , first time at the age of 19, since then court, lawyers, PP, etc became a part of my life. Perhaps was not that lucky.
I agree, with you that I am not that well educated, well experienced or know a lot about labor laws or laws of land in general. Thank You sir, for making me remind it.
May god bless you. Take Care. Over & Out , I am out of this discussion, please don't post any message or comments for me via this thread.
Regards
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
Mr Saswata Banarjee,
I respect your views & comment. With due request sir, I have a question to you, what is the reason behind taking my name when I had clearly mentioned I am going out of this discussion? Please clarify.
I have heard about you a lot, especially about your 'Labor laws & compliance Audits' & respect you sir . Well, if you had said this before, then we could had a discussion in details, I was looking for a senior & mature person like you, but not now. FYI, RTI hold good for labor commission, or any public body right ? Labor commission can direct a Pvt company to provide a reply or a reason behind a termination, am I correct? Only, pvt companies have a right to appeal against PIO (Third party information), that can be defended too, since you perform, labor laws & compliance audits, I am sure you are well aware of it (I hope I had said something about trade secret/ or losing competitive edge in the market. This is just one of 18 ways, sir. Anyway, I agree with you that, we follow whatever is correct as per laws of land & nothing else. That's it.
Please don't involve me in this discussion any further or take my name sir, that's a humble request to you , else would forced to show all the ways /options legally available. That wont be good , as it would be like showing trum cards we have got. You, know sir, something , I am a guy, who went to high court , first time at the age of 19, since then court, lawyers, PP, etc became a part of my life. Perhaps was not that lucky.
I agree, with you that I am not that well educated, well experienced or know a lot about labor laws or laws of land in general. Thank You sir, for making me remind it.
May god bless you. Take Care. Over & Out , I am out of this discussion, please don't post any message or comments for me via this thread.
Regards
Sovik B
From India, Mumbai
You keep insisting on making comments that are not right and have the serious reputation of misleading someone reading the thread. So I am forced to respond and to name you specifically.
With regard to your latest comment, labour commission is subject to RTI. however, the RTI can only be for information currently available. It is not a writ that can force the commissioner to collect information from the factory / company or any person that is not already available with him. So there again, any attempt to use RTI to get information from a private sector will not work.
If you have a trump card that helps the original poster, please communicate that to him. If you wish to take up his case, please do that. It's your wish or desire. But if it is not available openly and correctly and can not be communicated on this forum, then it is of no use to the members and should be kept out. I will leave it to the moderators to decide on that.
From India, Mumbai
With regard to your latest comment, labour commission is subject to RTI. however, the RTI can only be for information currently available. It is not a writ that can force the commissioner to collect information from the factory / company or any person that is not already available with him. So there again, any attempt to use RTI to get information from a private sector will not work.
If you have a trump card that helps the original poster, please communicate that to him. If you wish to take up his case, please do that. It's your wish or desire. But if it is not available openly and correctly and can not be communicated on this forum, then it is of no use to the members and should be kept out. I will leave it to the moderators to decide on that.
From India, Mumbai
Oh Saswata da, agay poro bhalo koray ami ki bolaychi..........Ami o jani, RTI is not a writ petition. Bhalo koray dekho ami ki bolaychi. How to use this weapon.
I know, your blessings will always be there with me & I am not against you. Read in cool & calm mind what I have said. Saswata da poro bhalo koray thanda mathay. Trust me, and you can understand what mean to say, with an open mind.
From India, Mumbai
I know, your blessings will always be there with me & I am not against you. Read in cool & calm mind what I have said. Saswata da poro bhalo koray thanda mathay. Trust me, and you can understand what mean to say, with an open mind.
From India, Mumbai
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