HI,
CHITRALEKHA,
LET US KNOW WHETHER U HANE CLEARED ALL THE FORMALITIES DURIN HIE ULL & FINAL, IF IN THE DOC HE HAS WRITTEN THAT HE HAS NOT ANY DUE PENDING UPON HIM AND PUT HIS SIGN THAN NO NEED TO PROCEED FOR THIS CASE.
SONIYA BHARDWAJ
Manager HR
From India, Chandra
CHITRALEKHA,
LET US KNOW WHETHER U HANE CLEARED ALL THE FORMALITIES DURIN HIE ULL & FINAL, IF IN THE DOC HE HAS WRITTEN THAT HE HAS NOT ANY DUE PENDING UPON HIM AND PUT HIS SIGN THAN NO NEED TO PROCEED FOR THIS CASE.
SONIYA BHARDWAJ
Manager HR
From India, Chandra
Dear Chitralekha,
1. There are a couple of personality traits which are vital for group dynamics and candidates must be screened during the recruitment process or the probation period, at the most. They are - Social Effectiveness (ability to stay together with the group and contribute positively); Cooperation (cooperative with the team members); Sense of Responsibility; Liveliness (ability to stay composed under duress/ remain effective during ambiguity; and Courage (Physical and moral courage).
2. Lack of any one or all of them should raise alarm bells. Any amount of competence cannot compensate for the lack of these qualities. The Senior Manager Finance fails on all counts.
3. Unfortunately, with all the background checks, various selection tools and due precautions, such undesirable elements do manage to get recruited. Reasons are many- hurry to recruit/seemingly good profile/subjectivity during interviews etc. However, probation period is meant to check such attitudenal aberrations--He should have gone!! And should not have been confirmed.
4. Compared to other industries, construction Industry suffers from the quality of manpower, all around the world. I was myself part of the $19 billion USD project abroad, with 50,000 workers from more than 52 countries. You had excellent professionals and you had the worst of rogues too. A typical HR atmosphere is missing and the HSSE does the bulk of the jobs. However, the rules are always stringent -- Either you follow the company rules or you are out. As rightly pointed out, he is not a workman. And as per his contract, his misconduct deserves him to be terminated. And no legal system approves of such a litigation by a manager.
5. In case you CMD wishes to close the case, it must be to hush up the issue and avoid any legal hassle. However, we may be setting a precedent for more such litigations. Hence, the decision of your COO and Head HR to fight out in the court of law, is not out of place.
6. Kindly remember that in office procedure, there is nothing called verbal counselling. We do it out of good faith. But all such meetings, counsellings, written advisories/warnings etc. must be recorded. His refusal to accept the letter should have been endorsed as such by a witness and records kept. A Good Chit to such black sheep will only propagate the misery of many companies in future and does not deserve sympathy for common good. I know of one AGM HR, who was fired for misconduct and could not get another job.
7. Even if the company's name has come by mistake, there is no harm done. We as a community are in a learning curve. Best of the companies learn from their own failures and make their own case studies. Great people make fun of themselves and laugh it out. No big deal.
8. I will suggest to all my HR colleagues to keep the probation period to analyse and confirm behavior patterns before confirmation. Skills can be trained and bettered but bad character traits are not trainable. People suppress it to hide their aabnormality. But a deliberate Stress Management brings the true self out in the open.
I also look forward to many more suggestions from this learned galaxy of professionals.
From India, Delhi
71. There are a couple of personality traits which are vital for group dynamics and candidates must be screened during the recruitment process or the probation period, at the most. They are - Social Effectiveness (ability to stay together with the group and contribute positively); Cooperation (cooperative with the team members); Sense of Responsibility; Liveliness (ability to stay composed under duress/ remain effective during ambiguity; and Courage (Physical and moral courage).
2. Lack of any one or all of them should raise alarm bells. Any amount of competence cannot compensate for the lack of these qualities. The Senior Manager Finance fails on all counts.
3. Unfortunately, with all the background checks, various selection tools and due precautions, such undesirable elements do manage to get recruited. Reasons are many- hurry to recruit/seemingly good profile/subjectivity during interviews etc. However, probation period is meant to check such attitudenal aberrations--He should have gone!! And should not have been confirmed.
4. Compared to other industries, construction Industry suffers from the quality of manpower, all around the world. I was myself part of the $19 billion USD project abroad, with 50,000 workers from more than 52 countries. You had excellent professionals and you had the worst of rogues too. A typical HR atmosphere is missing and the HSSE does the bulk of the jobs. However, the rules are always stringent -- Either you follow the company rules or you are out. As rightly pointed out, he is not a workman. And as per his contract, his misconduct deserves him to be terminated. And no legal system approves of such a litigation by a manager.
5. In case you CMD wishes to close the case, it must be to hush up the issue and avoid any legal hassle. However, we may be setting a precedent for more such litigations. Hence, the decision of your COO and Head HR to fight out in the court of law, is not out of place.
6. Kindly remember that in office procedure, there is nothing called verbal counselling. We do it out of good faith. But all such meetings, counsellings, written advisories/warnings etc. must be recorded. His refusal to accept the letter should have been endorsed as such by a witness and records kept. A Good Chit to such black sheep will only propagate the misery of many companies in future and does not deserve sympathy for common good. I know of one AGM HR, who was fired for misconduct and could not get another job.
7. Even if the company's name has come by mistake, there is no harm done. We as a community are in a learning curve. Best of the companies learn from their own failures and make their own case studies. Great people make fun of themselves and laugh it out. No big deal.
8. I will suggest to all my HR colleagues to keep the probation period to analyse and confirm behavior patterns before confirmation. Skills can be trained and bettered but bad character traits are not trainable. People suppress it to hide their aabnormality. But a deliberate Stress Management brings the true self out in the open.
I also look forward to many more suggestions from this learned galaxy of professionals.
From India, Delhi
Hello Chitralekha
I have gone through the facts of the case and members' comments. There are clearly ceratin lapses in handling the case which may make your case weak in the court.
1) In such circumstances, you should have obatined his resignation instead of choosing the root of termination.
2) Even by terminating his servcies, you have not stuck to the terms of appoitment letter in letter and spirit which permits you to terminate his servcies in the event of any miscondcut committed by him. By refraining from mentioning the cause in the letter of termination, you rendered the termination plain and without any justification and vioative of the terms of appointment, leave alone the principles of natural justice.
3) Even if you present letters of warning and counselling in respect of his bad behaviour in the past, the court in all probablity may not take cognisence of the same, since those incidents were closed by the said letters of warning etc. and do not constitute a present cause for his termination since you failed to relate them to his termination.You cannot now do it behind his back which is violative of the principles of natural justice.
4) Even if there is an enabling clause in the letter of appointment, empowering the employer to terminate the servcies of an employee in the event of any misconduct committed by him, the courts may not permit a summary termination for a misconduct without heraing him as per the principles of natural jutice since the allegation will be stigmatic and hurt his career and livelihood. You should have issued a chargesheet or at least a show-cause notice putting him on notice of his alleged beahviour and he should have been heard in respect of the charge.After hearing him, you should have taken an appropriate decision.
5)Leave alone issuing a show-cause notice, you have not even mentioned the reasons fror termination acceding to the request of the employee.
You should consider the chances of your success in the court with the help of a specialist in the matter and then take a call.The employee may also come out with his own theories of prejudice etc. agaisnt you which you need also to defend in the court. It is not easy to convince courts and to stand to the examination by the lawyer of the employee without a clinching evidence.You should first ascertain from your advocate whether the evidence which you have ,to defend your action will be adequate to supprt your action.you aways need to take a considered view but not an emotional view in such matters, failing which you will be beating a dead snake and shed lot of sweat, finally knowing that all the sweat ahs gone waste.
B.Saikumar
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
I have gone through the facts of the case and members' comments. There are clearly ceratin lapses in handling the case which may make your case weak in the court.
1) In such circumstances, you should have obatined his resignation instead of choosing the root of termination.
2) Even by terminating his servcies, you have not stuck to the terms of appoitment letter in letter and spirit which permits you to terminate his servcies in the event of any miscondcut committed by him. By refraining from mentioning the cause in the letter of termination, you rendered the termination plain and without any justification and vioative of the terms of appointment, leave alone the principles of natural justice.
3) Even if you present letters of warning and counselling in respect of his bad behaviour in the past, the court in all probablity may not take cognisence of the same, since those incidents were closed by the said letters of warning etc. and do not constitute a present cause for his termination since you failed to relate them to his termination.You cannot now do it behind his back which is violative of the principles of natural justice.
4) Even if there is an enabling clause in the letter of appointment, empowering the employer to terminate the servcies of an employee in the event of any misconduct committed by him, the courts may not permit a summary termination for a misconduct without heraing him as per the principles of natural jutice since the allegation will be stigmatic and hurt his career and livelihood. You should have issued a chargesheet or at least a show-cause notice putting him on notice of his alleged beahviour and he should have been heard in respect of the charge.After hearing him, you should have taken an appropriate decision.
5)Leave alone issuing a show-cause notice, you have not even mentioned the reasons fror termination acceding to the request of the employee.
You should consider the chances of your success in the court with the help of a specialist in the matter and then take a call.The employee may also come out with his own theories of prejudice etc. agaisnt you which you need also to defend in the court. It is not easy to convince courts and to stand to the examination by the lawyer of the employee without a clinching evidence.You should first ascertain from your advocate whether the evidence which you have ,to defend your action will be adequate to supprt your action.you aways need to take a considered view but not an emotional view in such matters, failing which you will be beating a dead snake and shed lot of sweat, finally knowing that all the sweat ahs gone waste.
B.Saikumar
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Dear Chitralekha, I read your article very deeply same happens in our company and we have taken same decision . Your case is just a mirror image of what happen in our organisation Regards, Neetu
From Malaysia, Klang
From Malaysia, Klang
Hi, Greetings to All Members,
Hi, Chitra, I support to M. Basha concepts , you have to put in court all letter receive copy of employee. step by step whether it had or soft copy. 1st advice letter ,warning letter 2nd warning letter & final letter.
S.Rao
Executive HR & IR
From India, New Delhi
Hi, Chitra, I support to M. Basha concepts , you have to put in court all letter receive copy of employee. step by step whether it had or soft copy. 1st advice letter ,warning letter 2nd warning letter & final letter.
S.Rao
Executive HR & IR
From India, New Delhi
In any termination case on the ground of misconduct it is necessary to establish the charges whatever leveled against the employee only thereafter any employer/company can terminate the person.
or you can hold a suspension pending enquiry against charged employee till the charges proved.
and second if it is mentioned in appointment letter that the in case of termination by employer there is no such any payment of notice period will be made by company to the employee.in this case company shall not be liable to pay the amount of notice period.
From India
or you can hold a suspension pending enquiry against charged employee till the charges proved.
and second if it is mentioned in appointment letter that the in case of termination by employer there is no such any payment of notice period will be made by company to the employee.in this case company shall not be liable to pay the amount of notice period.
From India
HI,
i just want to know for what reason u have given in termination letter becouse u have quated that after his request you have not mentioned a reson "MISCONDUCT ".if you are not mentioned the reason misconduct in termination letter then where is point to terminate his service due to misconduct.
Vijay
From India, Madras
i just want to know for what reason u have given in termination letter becouse u have quated that after his request you have not mentioned a reson "MISCONDUCT ".if you are not mentioned the reason misconduct in termination letter then where is point to terminate his service due to misconduct.
Vijay
From India, Madras
Chitralekha ji,
I have gone thru' almost every posting in this thread. In any legal matter I do not wish to make comments with out reading all the documents pertaining to case and seeing all the facts and figures but still I say that prima-facie your case seems to be poor.
However, I would like to give here certain tips to all the members so that care can be taken by them in future in such or similar circumstances.
1. It is always beneficial to take resignation by certain class of employees rather than issuing termination letter.
2. Collect documentary evidences as much as possible before taking any action.
3. Once you take any action, come what may, be firm to it.
4. While taking action you should be very fair / reasonable.
4. Name of the company or person should be avoided while posting any kind of issues in public forum.
5. Do not write your name at the end of posting when you wish to post any thing Anonymous / secret.
From India, Mumbai
I have gone thru' almost every posting in this thread. In any legal matter I do not wish to make comments with out reading all the documents pertaining to case and seeing all the facts and figures but still I say that prima-facie your case seems to be poor.
However, I would like to give here certain tips to all the members so that care can be taken by them in future in such or similar circumstances.
1. It is always beneficial to take resignation by certain class of employees rather than issuing termination letter.
2. Collect documentary evidences as much as possible before taking any action.
3. Once you take any action, come what may, be firm to it.
4. While taking action you should be very fair / reasonable.
4. Name of the company or person should be avoided while posting any kind of issues in public forum.
5. Do not write your name at the end of posting when you wish to post any thing Anonymous / secret.
From India, Mumbai
Hi Chitra,
This is somewhat like "take the horse to the pond" but do not say the horse, com'on now drink it", bcoz, the horse is aware that it has 'water to drink' in front.
Most of the organization do not follow The Same Rules in the Contract-Agreement or Appointment Letter in the higher level hierarchy. Hence any letter / communication being issued to such an employee should be carefully pursued before issuance.
Santhan Raj
From India, Hyderabad
This is somewhat like "take the horse to the pond" but do not say the horse, com'on now drink it", bcoz, the horse is aware that it has 'water to drink' in front.
Most of the organization do not follow The Same Rules in the Contract-Agreement or Appointment Letter in the higher level hierarchy. Hence any letter / communication being issued to such an employee should be carefully pursued before issuance.
Santhan Raj
From India, Hyderabad
hi,
do you have proof of complain from his subordinates that their head is troubling them. how you will prove that he was having rude behavior?
if you have written complain against his misconduct and on that complain if any letter issued to him then only i think court will listen to you. otherwise as per contract you have to give 3 months pay because you paid one month pay which showed that you are terminating him just like that and not on misconduct ground and you paid 1 month salary. court will say that he is asking 3 months salary that is why now you are bringing fake proofs.
regards
rajiv sinha
From India, Mumbai
do you have proof of complain from his subordinates that their head is troubling them. how you will prove that he was having rude behavior?
if you have written complain against his misconduct and on that complain if any letter issued to him then only i think court will listen to you. otherwise as per contract you have to give 3 months pay because you paid one month pay which showed that you are terminating him just like that and not on misconduct ground and you paid 1 month salary. court will say that he is asking 3 months salary that is why now you are bringing fake proofs.
regards
rajiv sinha
From India, Mumbai
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