Dear Smita,
My second post was somehow getting truncated. Therefore, I have split the post into two parts. The leftover part is as below:
Supreme Court has told the Central Government not to make Aadhaar card mandatory because it breaches the privacy of the individual. This is because ours is a democratic country, and democracy demands respecting the privacy of each citizen. Secondly, it was reported in the newspapers that our current Prime Minister, while filling the form to contest the assembly election in the past, had left blank information about his marital status. However, while filling the form for the Lok Sabha election, he disclosed that he is married. Nevertheless, for keeping the column blank about marital status, the Election Commission did not turn down the form of Mr. Narendra Modi. Therefore, what flexibility even the Election Commission is ready to show, why the same flexibility your private limited company is not ready to show?
If your logic is to be applied, then should we suspect our Prime Minister's integrity?
Today's HR has far larger issues to look at. I humbly request you to solve the primary business issues rather than delving or prying into employees' personal affairs. My experience dealing with HR shows that there are hundreds of things that HR is supposed to do or can do that they do not do.
In olden days, for all practical purposes, business owners behaved as if they were feudal lords. The rigid social order of yesteryears has been crumbling. The workplace of the 21st century is different. Today, the major focus is on competition and innovation. It appears that you are yet to come to terms with the norms of the modern workplace. Today, even the LGBT community has gained social sanction. Just ten years ago, anybody would have frowned upon such a community.
For Mr. Nathrao: You have written, "I know of cases where people have not changed the nomination after marriage and died with money/benefits then going to the mother or father of the employee." Such cases are common, and occasionally such posts have come up in the forum as well.
Not changing the nomination after marriage could be deliberate, or it might have happened inadvertently. Educating employees on the importance of changing the nomination after marriage is HR's duty. That is why I have written in my previous post about issuing a circular.
Final Comments: Overall, Indians are family-oriented. That is why we end up asking questions about one's personal life. In contrast, in the US, interviewers cannot ask anything about marital life or family to the job candidate. There is a list of prohibited questions for the interviewers. In India, such demarcating lines are not drawn. Second thing is about openness too. We disclose too many things about the family voluntarily. Therefore, those who refuse to be part of this culture of disclosure become a different kettle of fish, as said by Mr. Nathrao.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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8032My second post was somehow getting truncated. Therefore, I have split the post into two parts. The leftover part is as below:
Supreme Court has told the Central Government not to make Aadhaar card mandatory because it breaches the privacy of the individual. This is because ours is a democratic country, and democracy demands respecting the privacy of each citizen. Secondly, it was reported in the newspapers that our current Prime Minister, while filling the form to contest the assembly election in the past, had left blank information about his marital status. However, while filling the form for the Lok Sabha election, he disclosed that he is married. Nevertheless, for keeping the column blank about marital status, the Election Commission did not turn down the form of Mr. Narendra Modi. Therefore, what flexibility even the Election Commission is ready to show, why the same flexibility your private limited company is not ready to show?
If your logic is to be applied, then should we suspect our Prime Minister's integrity?
Today's HR has far larger issues to look at. I humbly request you to solve the primary business issues rather than delving or prying into employees' personal affairs. My experience dealing with HR shows that there are hundreds of things that HR is supposed to do or can do that they do not do.
In olden days, for all practical purposes, business owners behaved as if they were feudal lords. The rigid social order of yesteryears has been crumbling. The workplace of the 21st century is different. Today, the major focus is on competition and innovation. It appears that you are yet to come to terms with the norms of the modern workplace. Today, even the LGBT community has gained social sanction. Just ten years ago, anybody would have frowned upon such a community.
For Mr. Nathrao: You have written, "I know of cases where people have not changed the nomination after marriage and died with money/benefits then going to the mother or father of the employee." Such cases are common, and occasionally such posts have come up in the forum as well.
Not changing the nomination after marriage could be deliberate, or it might have happened inadvertently. Educating employees on the importance of changing the nomination after marriage is HR's duty. That is why I have written in my previous post about issuing a circular.
Final Comments: Overall, Indians are family-oriented. That is why we end up asking questions about one's personal life. In contrast, in the US, interviewers cannot ask anything about marital life or family to the job candidate. There is a list of prohibited questions for the interviewers. In India, such demarcating lines are not drawn. Second thing is about openness too. We disclose too many things about the family voluntarily. Therefore, those who refuse to be part of this culture of disclosure become a different kettle of fish, as said by Mr. Nathrao.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Members,
Vineeta: This is a real issue that has surfaced.
Dinesh Divekar: "This information pertains to an employee's personal life, therefore, it is secondary information. How can you link the disclosure of secondary information to the 'integrity' of the employee?"
You are absolutely right that this is secondary information. Therefore, it really should not matter whatever details the individual wants to give falling in that section. Employees are not comfortable sharing their personal information, primarily for personal security concerns, and we respect them for that.
Unfortunately, some employees are misusing the same. Innocent partners are being trapped for matrimony. This trait itself is disturbing enough for their integrity to be questioned.
Yes, there are courts and laws for it.
I totally agree and understand as to 'why should the workplace and the personal life' be linked. As we live in a society where a whole lot of things are inter-linked, like job, residence, city, etc.
Now, my basic question boils down to:
1. An individual is actually taking advantage of this and getting married by disclosing wrong information to unsuspecting individuals. (Mr. Dinesh - I totally understand and agree that a job and marriage have nothing to do with each other - but unfortunately, this is the only data available to a person.)
Therefore, should we as an organization do our bit towards society and ask for correct updates, so that such incidents can be minimized.
I am thankful for all the thoughts shared by the members.
Regards,
Smita
From India, Pune
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Vineeta: This is a real issue that has surfaced.
Dinesh Divekar: "This information pertains to an employee's personal life, therefore, it is secondary information. How can you link the disclosure of secondary information to the 'integrity' of the employee?"
You are absolutely right that this is secondary information. Therefore, it really should not matter whatever details the individual wants to give falling in that section. Employees are not comfortable sharing their personal information, primarily for personal security concerns, and we respect them for that.
Unfortunately, some employees are misusing the same. Innocent partners are being trapped for matrimony. This trait itself is disturbing enough for their integrity to be questioned.
Yes, there are courts and laws for it.
I totally agree and understand as to 'why should the workplace and the personal life' be linked. As we live in a society where a whole lot of things are inter-linked, like job, residence, city, etc.
Now, my basic question boils down to:
1. An individual is actually taking advantage of this and getting married by disclosing wrong information to unsuspecting individuals. (Mr. Dinesh - I totally understand and agree that a job and marriage have nothing to do with each other - but unfortunately, this is the only data available to a person.)
Therefore, should we as an organization do our bit towards society and ask for correct updates, so that such incidents can be minimized.
I am thankful for all the thoughts shared by the members.
Regards,
Smita
From India, Pune
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I agree with Dinesh Sir. Sometimes we bother unnecessarily, this is purely personal. Yet, once we know the secret information of someone, it creates some sorts of curiosity but of no use. As human beings, we do have many secrets in our lives, but do not disclose, and need not to be disclosed. Personal and professional lives are two different aspects.
From India, Gurgaon
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From India, Gurgaon
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I think revealing marital status cannot be considered as not disclosing any secrets infringing personal life. Before we suggest anything, it's to be clarified whether the candidate either suppressed the facts when asked for/filled in the documents or no such things were asked for. If he was not asked to mention in the application or any declaration, then it need not be faulted. Whereas if he had mentioned "single" against the marital column, it's clearly a suppression of facts. (I remember one topmost politician was questioned more or less on the similar question, and his suppressed wife was denied a visa recently).
But I consider it is one of the primary duties of any HR to have such information in the personal files of all their employees for obvious reasons. I have no clue as to how their HR managed the "nomination" in PF, etc. Isn't that also where he mentioned as single and nominated others? I strongly feel obtaining such information (without making it known to others) is a better administrative practice.
From India, Bangalore
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But I consider it is one of the primary duties of any HR to have such information in the personal files of all their employees for obvious reasons. I have no clue as to how their HR managed the "nomination" in PF, etc. Isn't that also where he mentioned as single and nominated others? I strongly feel obtaining such information (without making it known to others) is a better administrative practice.
From India, Bangalore
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"I think revealing marital status cannot be considered as not disclosing any secrets infringing personal life."
Absolutely right. A company needs to know who is the next of kin. God forbid there is an accident - whom to inform, whom to pay compensation. We cannot compare our culture with US culture. Do we have Western standards of quality work? Personal information forms get filled out in all organizations. Hiding marital status in the name of privacy is carrying things too far. Even if marital status can be assumed to be secondary information, hiding or lying about it definitely gives an indication that the employee never reveals full information about himself.
From India, Pune
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Absolutely right. A company needs to know who is the next of kin. God forbid there is an accident - whom to inform, whom to pay compensation. We cannot compare our culture with US culture. Do we have Western standards of quality work? Personal information forms get filled out in all organizations. Hiding marital status in the name of privacy is carrying things too far. Even if marital status can be assumed to be secondary information, hiding or lying about it definitely gives an indication that the employee never reveals full information about himself.
From India, Pune
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The information you are seeking is the status. However, your system has only single/married/divorced, which is incomplete. You must also include separated/in a relationship as options. A person could argue that since the system does not account for a separated status, they chose single status. First, you need to update your system to reflect current realities before considering punitive measures. In developed countries, companies are prohibited from inquiring about age, race, sex, sexual preference, marital status, or any other personal matters. It's essential to look ahead and adapt your systems accordingly.
From United+States, San+Francisco
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From United+States, San+Francisco
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Interesting discussion. If a person gives inaccurate information on marital status, it may be wrong morally. However, even in government service, no action could be taken if wrong information is furnished in the nomination forms. Moreover, from a legal point of view, a nominee is only a trustee who receives the benefits, in the exceptional circumstance of the death of the employee, on behalf of legal heirs. However, much complication could result if the employee furnishes incorrect information in the eventuality of their untimely demise.
From India, Kochi
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From India, Kochi
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"However, even in government service, no action could be taken if wrong information is furnished in the nomination forms.
When nomination forms are filled in by employees, the admin department checks them. Information not tallying with admin records is always supposed to be questioned and not accepted blindly.
"However, much complication could result if the employee furnishes incorrect information in the eventuality of his untimely demise."
Certainly. I know of cases where two "wives" have ended up, resulting in court cases to prove who is the legal heir. In the process, bulk non-effective/death benefits get held up, and lawyers earn their fees by taking up cases. All this because someone did not fill in forms properly, married twice without proper divorce, and hid information from the employer.
From India, Pune
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When nomination forms are filled in by employees, the admin department checks them. Information not tallying with admin records is always supposed to be questioned and not accepted blindly.
"However, much complication could result if the employee furnishes incorrect information in the eventuality of his untimely demise."
Certainly. I know of cases where two "wives" have ended up, resulting in court cases to prove who is the legal heir. In the process, bulk non-effective/death benefits get held up, and lawyers earn their fees by taking up cases. All this because someone did not fill in forms properly, married twice without proper divorce, and hid information from the employer.
From India, Pune
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Most of the government offices and PSUs have a system of collecting and keeping one's personal data in a format duly attested by any one of the first-class government officials at the time of employee joining itself. Employees are instructed to keep this information updated whenever changes occur. In some PSUs, it's known as an 'Attestation Form,' while others may have similar forms. The form is designed to obtain almost all related information, including the names of father, mother, siblings, any criminal/civil cases, property holdings including family members, and so on. It's advisable to introduce these formats and ensure all details are filled in, leaving nothing blank. Providing false information and leaving blanks are treated seriously and may even result in disciplinary actions and penalties.
Every year, property return updating is also strictly followed before qualifying for an annual increment.
From India, Bangalore
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Every year, property return updating is also strictly followed before qualifying for an annual increment.
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Members,
Thank you very much for your views. The discussion has brought forth some very interesting points.
1. Legally, no action can be taken as there are a whole lot of loopholes.
2. Incorrect information provided when directly asked about a question should be taken seriously. (A soft warning given and the individual asked to update the areas correctly).
3. As a matter of routine, once a year, employees are requested to check and update their personal details.
4. When such information is deliberately suppressed, the company should take some action for this breach.
5. I would be thankful if you could suggest some more ways to curb this problem of "deliberate suppression of facts".
Regards,
Smita
From India, Pune
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Thank you very much for your views. The discussion has brought forth some very interesting points.
1. Legally, no action can be taken as there are a whole lot of loopholes.
2. Incorrect information provided when directly asked about a question should be taken seriously. (A soft warning given and the individual asked to update the areas correctly).
3. As a matter of routine, once a year, employees are requested to check and update their personal details.
4. When such information is deliberately suppressed, the company should take some action for this breach.
5. I would be thankful if you could suggest some more ways to curb this problem of "deliberate suppression of facts".
Regards,
Smita
From India, Pune
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