Hi Could anyone please tell me what’s the general tenure, which would adopt by the company, of transforming off-rolls employees to on-rolls employees. Regards Harminder Singh
From India, New Delhi
From India, New Delhi
Hi,
on roll employees belongs to company, while off rolls employees belong to contractor only as they are managed by contractor, all employees may do same work, but their responsibilities are diversified for the company.
From India, Delhi
on roll employees belongs to company, while off rolls employees belong to contractor only as they are managed by contractor, all employees may do same work, but their responsibilities are diversified for the company.
From India, Delhi
If a company wants to outsource it's core activities in manufacturing to a contractor, is there any procedure under law to steer clear of Sec.10 of the Contrcat labour Act?
B.Saikumar
HR & Labour Law advisor
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
1899B.Saikumar
HR & Labour Law advisor
Mumbai
From India, Mumbai
Dear All,
Please suggest me if we appoint any employee on contract bases for 03 months (Temporary Appointment) and consolidate salary, then we will deduct his PF or he will be exempted.Whether his consolidate above 6500 or below 6500 both cases.
Regards,
Harinder Singh
From India, Bangalore
Please suggest me if we appoint any employee on contract bases for 03 months (Temporary Appointment) and consolidate salary, then we will deduct his PF or he will be exempted.Whether his consolidate above 6500 or below 6500 both cases.
Regards,
Harinder Singh
From India, Bangalore
Hello,
My position remains-in the sense that if PF/ESI is applicable to your company you will be held responsible for due compliance of your own employees and those of the contractor. If I remember correctly both the acts will be applicable to you. If you have any doubts, let me know the maximum number of employees you employed on any single day in previous twelve months and I will revert. But assuming these acts are applicable, you have no escape but you should know the following points:
1) You cannot contract out of law. If the employee in question, whether on your rolls or on your contractor's rolls, he will have to be covered under PF if his Basic+DA is less than Rs. 6500/- as of now. This limit is raised by the government from time to time!
2) In case of ESI, employees have to be covered upto a GROSS monthly salary/wage of Rs. 15000/- again as of now!
It is best that you take professional help as regards applicability of various labor legislation and compliance under each of them!
If I can help, I will be glad to but I operate out of Pune! For any other help, you are welcome-thanks to citeHR!!!
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
---------------
From India, Pune
My position remains-in the sense that if PF/ESI is applicable to your company you will be held responsible for due compliance of your own employees and those of the contractor. If I remember correctly both the acts will be applicable to you. If you have any doubts, let me know the maximum number of employees you employed on any single day in previous twelve months and I will revert. But assuming these acts are applicable, you have no escape but you should know the following points:
1) You cannot contract out of law. If the employee in question, whether on your rolls or on your contractor's rolls, he will have to be covered under PF if his Basic+DA is less than Rs. 6500/- as of now. This limit is raised by the government from time to time!
2) In case of ESI, employees have to be covered upto a GROSS monthly salary/wage of Rs. 15000/- again as of now!
It is best that you take professional help as regards applicability of various labor legislation and compliance under each of them!
If I can help, I will be glad to but I operate out of Pune! For any other help, you are welcome-thanks to citeHR!!!
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
---------------
From India, Pune
Hello,
If I have understood your query correctly, permit me to say this.
1) If you desire to convert your off roll employees to on rolls, you certainly can do so without much hassle! But this would be a very important decision in as much as:
a) You would be loose flexibility of reducing your manpower to suit business situation.
b) You may have to enhance of such employees to avoid unfair comparison and attendant problems in employee relations.
c) If you do it on a large scale, you may not be able to avoid "seniority" aspirations of current off roll employees to become on roll employees.
Subject to the above cautions, I recommend that you evolve first a "policy" which you may not announce but use it for yourself to ensure uniformity and fairness in such conversions. Your policy must contain fair and objective yardsticks to judge off roll employees qualifying for on rolls employment.
As to the general tenure for such conversion, let us look at it like this. When we take an employee straight on rolls, we make him go through "training" or "probation" to be able to judge his suitability to the organization in the long run. This is a good thing. If roll employees have spent adequate time with the company enabling the company to reach a rational and objective decision for long term association, then a "nominal" probation period leading to confirmation would be in order! Position and salary to be offered would largely be governed by the company's situation and decision!
Trust you will find your answer here!
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
--------------
From India, Pune
If I have understood your query correctly, permit me to say this.
1) If you desire to convert your off roll employees to on rolls, you certainly can do so without much hassle! But this would be a very important decision in as much as:
a) You would be loose flexibility of reducing your manpower to suit business situation.
b) You may have to enhance of such employees to avoid unfair comparison and attendant problems in employee relations.
c) If you do it on a large scale, you may not be able to avoid "seniority" aspirations of current off roll employees to become on roll employees.
Subject to the above cautions, I recommend that you evolve first a "policy" which you may not announce but use it for yourself to ensure uniformity and fairness in such conversions. Your policy must contain fair and objective yardsticks to judge off roll employees qualifying for on rolls employment.
As to the general tenure for such conversion, let us look at it like this. When we take an employee straight on rolls, we make him go through "training" or "probation" to be able to judge his suitability to the organization in the long run. This is a good thing. If roll employees have spent adequate time with the company enabling the company to reach a rational and objective decision for long term association, then a "nominal" probation period leading to confirmation would be in order! Position and salary to be offered would largely be governed by the company's situation and decision!
Trust you will find your answer here!
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
--------------
From India, Pune
Hello,
Outsourcing understood as vendorising (getting the work-core or incidental) OUTSIDE the premises, is SAFE if possible as the Contract Labour (R &A Act) does not apply to such a situation at all.
However if the "production" (again core or otherwise) is outsourced (sub contracted) but to be performed within the company premises, then the employee would be vulnerable to the mischief of Sec. 10
To steer clear of impact of the Sec. 10, following issues need to to be taken care of:
1) The contract (whether as "production on contract" or as supplying labour) cannot be sham.
2) This would entail, the employer having virtually NO control over the attendance, conduct, performance, recruitment and discipline of the employees of the contractor. Even nominal supervision often becomes enough to infer "employer-employee relationship" between the company and labour supplied by the contractor.
3) Compliance (ESI, PF, SMW, PPA, Gratuity, LWF, Muster, wage rolls, identity cards etc. have to be impeccable by the contractor-preferably!
4) If the contract labour and copany's own labour perform same work, then their wages have to be identical. This is condition precedent to issuance of labour license to a contractor.
Despite taking such precautionary measure, the vulnerability of the principla employer is NOT eliminated-it is just reduced! In brief the principal employer must not do ANYTHING that may lead someone to infer direct "employer-employee" relationship.
I must also state here in clear terms that the above is NOT a fool proof arrangement to escape the mischief of Sec. 10. It is better to discuss any given situation with bare facts of the matter
Have I been helpful please?
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
-----------------
From India, Pune
Outsourcing understood as vendorising (getting the work-core or incidental) OUTSIDE the premises, is SAFE if possible as the Contract Labour (R &A Act) does not apply to such a situation at all.
However if the "production" (again core or otherwise) is outsourced (sub contracted) but to be performed within the company premises, then the employee would be vulnerable to the mischief of Sec. 10
To steer clear of impact of the Sec. 10, following issues need to to be taken care of:
1) The contract (whether as "production on contract" or as supplying labour) cannot be sham.
2) This would entail, the employer having virtually NO control over the attendance, conduct, performance, recruitment and discipline of the employees of the contractor. Even nominal supervision often becomes enough to infer "employer-employee relationship" between the company and labour supplied by the contractor.
3) Compliance (ESI, PF, SMW, PPA, Gratuity, LWF, Muster, wage rolls, identity cards etc. have to be impeccable by the contractor-preferably!
4) If the contract labour and copany's own labour perform same work, then their wages have to be identical. This is condition precedent to issuance of labour license to a contractor.
Despite taking such precautionary measure, the vulnerability of the principla employer is NOT eliminated-it is just reduced! In brief the principal employer must not do ANYTHING that may lead someone to infer direct "employer-employee" relationship.
I must also state here in clear terms that the above is NOT a fool proof arrangement to escape the mischief of Sec. 10. It is better to discuss any given situation with bare facts of the matter
Have I been helpful please?
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
-----------------
From India, Pune
Hello,
For "bunti".
I have not understood if your question is addressed to any particular comment in this thread or is a "general" dismay!
In the first case it needs to be more focused and specific and in the other case it perhaps is out of place, as in HR/IR there are very rarely "right" answers. The answers depend upon the situation, the participants in the situation, their objectives, hidden agendas etc.
In the "generality" of the issue, the answers that work are termed as "right answers"!
Would you like to elaborate your question please?
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
-------------
From India, Pune
For "bunti".
I have not understood if your question is addressed to any particular comment in this thread or is a "general" dismay!
In the first case it needs to be more focused and specific and in the other case it perhaps is out of place, as in HR/IR there are very rarely "right" answers. The answers depend upon the situation, the participants in the situation, their objectives, hidden agendas etc.
In the "generality" of the issue, the answers that work are termed as "right answers"!
Would you like to elaborate your question please?
Regards
samvedan
June 4, 2012
-------------
From India, Pune
Hi Prasad,
What Sri Saikumar says is one side of the truth. The other side is to reduce cost for the company they hire some of them as off-roll. But as I have found out lately, some of the off-roll employees are highly qualified, brilliant have high level of EQ, contribute substantially in their domain areas. Due too their bad luck they are there without being recognized, but being utilized fully by the companies. They also contribute substantially to the growth and development of the organization. I feel for them. They may be aged but are still keeping themselves busy. A sugarcane may be bent but sweet is not reduced, A tamarind may be old, but its taste increase as it ages. This is true of some of the off-roll employees. But they are in most cases underpaid also.
M.J.SUBRAMANYAM, BANGALORE
From India, Bangalore
What Sri Saikumar says is one side of the truth. The other side is to reduce cost for the company they hire some of them as off-roll. But as I have found out lately, some of the off-roll employees are highly qualified, brilliant have high level of EQ, contribute substantially in their domain areas. Due too their bad luck they are there without being recognized, but being utilized fully by the companies. They also contribute substantially to the growth and development of the organization. I feel for them. They may be aged but are still keeping themselves busy. A sugarcane may be bent but sweet is not reduced, A tamarind may be old, but its taste increase as it ages. This is true of some of the off-roll employees. But they are in most cases underpaid also.
M.J.SUBRAMANYAM, BANGALORE
From India, Bangalore
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