Dear Addressee,
well, this is irrelvant to terminate both even after taking a written statement atleast they should be given a warning, even though the situation was in cafe... and they them self didn't aproach the management, well this isn't the right thing please both of you need to approach the upper management to ask why?,..... and some how clear it ....
Regards
Ahmed Ab Khan
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
well, this is irrelvant to terminate both even after taking a written statement atleast they should be given a warning, even though the situation was in cafe... and they them self didn't aproach the management, well this isn't the right thing please both of you need to approach the upper management to ask why?,..... and some how clear it ....
Regards
Ahmed Ab Khan
From Saudi Arabia, Jiddah
Dear virajgovekar (and other members)
Thanks for your comments.
I wonder how many noticed this.
The interruption was INTENDED.
As someone has also commented rightly as quoted below; "none of them have been offered keeping in view the incident in a dispassionate way . Also none have reacted keeping in view the interest of the company."
It is good to be emotional; but there is a difference between SYMPATHY and EMPATHY.
I wanted to provide a SPEED-BREAKER, similar to the Circuit Breaker installed in Stock Exchanges when activities are stopped if its found that emotional frenzy has caused a highly volatile situation.
At times, such excessive emotional outburst finds an emotional chord with others and leads to mob frenzy, resulting in 'work place violence' as we keep seeing all around us.
As HR professionals, we should be able to pick such emotional situations (Trade Unions are far more experienced in this) and ensure rationality and order. This thread provides a perfect live Case Study.
Kindly see the views offered by experienced and seasoned HR professionals like (Cite Contribution), Octavious, PSDhingra to name a few. Do you think they are inhuman, un-emotional or sadistic ??
What Octavious and (Cite Contribution) have contributed in this thread not only presents a balanced, rational viewpoint but alsp provide a universal principle and guidelines for execution of HR functions; and I agree with their opinion in toto. (I would request members, who are interested in 'learning' - to go through their responses again.)
To revisit the matter once again, it reminds me of another case. This was before the Domestic Violence Act 2005 came into force. A couple worked in the same organization at the same location. The husband would often quarrel, scold and abuse the wife in full public view. At times he would often slap the wife. The wife was a typical Indian wife who would accept everything and never complain against the husband, even when asked to do so.
The management was fair and had great concern for its people and it did not want to do anything that would affect the employment and livelihood of the couple. When counselling and verbal warning were in-effective, the management contacted the Police so that the husband can be advised stongly. The Police however, refused to intervene, without a written complaint from the wife and said that unless there is a 'real violence' with injuries which can be supported by Medical examination; they can not intervene !! Ultimately the management posted them together elsewhere and let the matter lie.
The difference between this case and the present one lies in the fact that the couple were Class IV employees, in the Public Health Department in a PSU, which are known for 'not terminating employees except under rare circumstances of financial dis-honesty".
Now, what we are talking here of;
At a more humane angle;
- Generally, slapping in public, does not take place in a day. More than a spur-of-the-moment act, it could have progressed from slapping in private and increase in frequency of slapping
- Being known to each other for 5 long years and then settling down for 10 months in a job in Tier I software companies and no known plans for matrimony. Can it not be an argument on this topic and the pleadings or pressure from the girl on this ??
I say this with some conviction, because i have NEVER HEARD OF a colleague arguing loudly with another colleague and then SLAPPING HER, while discussing some work assignments and programming logic dealing with computer architecture or software. Has anyone ever seen such a great "learning" organization ????
- Many young employees spend days and nights in the company campus, as they offer 5-star ambience and comforts. In fact Mr. Narayan Murthy of Infosys, had taken out an appeal, not to do this.
Does working on projects for long stretches, gives a male employee the right to slap her female colleague in full public view ???
I do not know how many female budding engineers would rush to join such a wonderful software company ???
Is it not a GREAT Employer Branding Strategy :
COME, JOIN US !!
WE are the # 1 Software Company in India !!
We ALSO SLAP the female colleagues in COMPANY CAFETERIA !!!!
- Also, some companies provide "dating allowance"; but do they also provide salary for using the office cafeteria for such personal discussions for long frequent hours ???
(If you assume, it was official discussion, during which a female gets slapped around, then its fine !)
- I think one must also understand on how the girl was "pressurized/influenced" to put up the FALSE EXCUSE that she "pinched" him which resulted in the slap.
On a more "empathical" front :
- How many male members of CiteHR would have any of their unmarried female relative (sister/ daughter etc) continue in such a situation and how many female members would be happy to have the colleague/boyfriend of their unmarried female relative (or self, if unmarried) have a relationship of 5 years and then getting slapped in company cafeteria ???
what would one think of such a company if it allows (or even nurtures) such organization culture ???
The more you keep analyzing this issue, the deeper you go, one keeps finding that such acts should not be tolerated :
- it is bad for the company's image and culture as well as business as they depend heavily on this),
- ignoring/excusing such acts, is bad for the society at large (and companies function within the environment).
My interest in this thread turned to dismay, when I found how HR professionals can be affected by the "sheep" mentality of following the one ahead; without applying any reason or logic; and building upon or extending what othe one ahead has said.
Apart from challenging the management's decision, we find some suggestions such as :
- "they should go to the Labour Inspector" : without commenting on this and initiating the debate on "whether considered workman or not"; I would say it is unlikely that S/W professionals of a Tier -I company would be happy doing this.
As can be seen in my other posts, I have always stood for the cause of employees, 'principles of natural justice' and 'fairness' as I find members recommending/discussing such issues which harm the interest of employees, such as :
- bifurcating the minimum wages into several heads (so as to reduce payments of statutory dues and benefits which rests on Basic Pay)
- including the intervening holidyas and closed days during a spell of leave (so as to reduce the leave balance); steps to prevent accumulation and encashment of leaves
- denial of maternity benefits etc.
Here, I find the same arguments being used in a wrong situation.
This is an incidence "which would shake the collective conscience" and thus would pass the scrutiny of law in case of termination. One must note that there are provisions of "exemplary punishments" and also the concept of having a saving clause in the Standing Orders while giving the list of misconducts as "including but not restricted to" about the "misconducts not covered under those specified".
Also, as (Cite Contribution) has pointed out, the fact about "employment at will" in Private sectors, and also "In a software firm the environment remains sensitive. Even very little behaviour comes under the scanner. The HR’s have to be doubly sure of employee behaviour in office premises. It sets the code of conduct for them."
Why should there be a job security for employees arguing in cafeteria and indulging in violent "un-appetising" activity ??
are not employees in private sector been terminated for lesser 'crimes' ??
If you do not believe, "research" and you"ll find countless such cases and also cases where the very same HR's recommend termination with impunity under the garb of "ENFORCING DISCIPLINE" ?? If an employee is coming late (one knows how frequently urban transport and traffic jams cause this) or has been absent (due to reasons/tragedies not under his control); its all right to TERMINATE HIM AND MAKE HIS FAMILY SUFFER ??!!
However, when a young professional employees indulge in such activities, as the one depicted; during company time, within ciompany premises; should not a company take appropriate action, under such extenuation circumstances or let the general impression that "everything goes here; if you are working hard, you can do whatever you want including slapping other employees !!"
I find a general lack of perspective and 'looking at the larger picture'.
However what I find uplifting is a few stray voice of dissent, based on cool rationality, which helps in avoiding it to de-generate (term as used in linear programming); like the ones submitted by abksatara, giridhar alwar, babsi, yuyudin,MaryAnn Drego, pravinpraj, oohey, akmathur13, gbvarik07, ramachandraiah satishan.
It is good to have a good heart; but much better to apply a clear mind in professional situations.
Those who may feel hurt at my opinion, and there would be many considering the 119 posts; I would like to clarify that I am only performing my duties as a moderator; and I find the views in this most popular and active thread; getting lop-sided or skewed in one direction; which among other things, may discourage others from presenting a different view-point.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
1426Thanks for your comments.
I wonder how many noticed this.
The interruption was INTENDED.
As someone has also commented rightly as quoted below; "none of them have been offered keeping in view the incident in a dispassionate way . Also none have reacted keeping in view the interest of the company."
It is good to be emotional; but there is a difference between SYMPATHY and EMPATHY.
I wanted to provide a SPEED-BREAKER, similar to the Circuit Breaker installed in Stock Exchanges when activities are stopped if its found that emotional frenzy has caused a highly volatile situation.
At times, such excessive emotional outburst finds an emotional chord with others and leads to mob frenzy, resulting in 'work place violence' as we keep seeing all around us.
As HR professionals, we should be able to pick such emotional situations (Trade Unions are far more experienced in this) and ensure rationality and order. This thread provides a perfect live Case Study.
Kindly see the views offered by experienced and seasoned HR professionals like (Cite Contribution), Octavious, PSDhingra to name a few. Do you think they are inhuman, un-emotional or sadistic ??
What Octavious and (Cite Contribution) have contributed in this thread not only presents a balanced, rational viewpoint but alsp provide a universal principle and guidelines for execution of HR functions; and I agree with their opinion in toto. (I would request members, who are interested in 'learning' - to go through their responses again.)
To revisit the matter once again, it reminds me of another case. This was before the Domestic Violence Act 2005 came into force. A couple worked in the same organization at the same location. The husband would often quarrel, scold and abuse the wife in full public view. At times he would often slap the wife. The wife was a typical Indian wife who would accept everything and never complain against the husband, even when asked to do so.
The management was fair and had great concern for its people and it did not want to do anything that would affect the employment and livelihood of the couple. When counselling and verbal warning were in-effective, the management contacted the Police so that the husband can be advised stongly. The Police however, refused to intervene, without a written complaint from the wife and said that unless there is a 'real violence' with injuries which can be supported by Medical examination; they can not intervene !! Ultimately the management posted them together elsewhere and let the matter lie.
The difference between this case and the present one lies in the fact that the couple were Class IV employees, in the Public Health Department in a PSU, which are known for 'not terminating employees except under rare circumstances of financial dis-honesty".
Now, what we are talking here of;
- It is a TIER - 1 SOFTWARE COMPANY (which presumably is in private sector) !!
- The 'actors' are young, highly educated Software Professional and the 'scene' is the office cafeteria - whether permitted to run by Cafe Coffee Day or Barista - still remains a part of workplace (open, visible and accessible to other employees).
At a more humane angle;
- Generally, slapping in public, does not take place in a day. More than a spur-of-the-moment act, it could have progressed from slapping in private and increase in frequency of slapping
- Being known to each other for 5 long years and then settling down for 10 months in a job in Tier I software companies and no known plans for matrimony. Can it not be an argument on this topic and the pleadings or pressure from the girl on this ??
I say this with some conviction, because i have NEVER HEARD OF a colleague arguing loudly with another colleague and then SLAPPING HER, while discussing some work assignments and programming logic dealing with computer architecture or software. Has anyone ever seen such a great "learning" organization ????
- Many young employees spend days and nights in the company campus, as they offer 5-star ambience and comforts. In fact Mr. Narayan Murthy of Infosys, had taken out an appeal, not to do this.
Does working on projects for long stretches, gives a male employee the right to slap her female colleague in full public view ???
I do not know how many female budding engineers would rush to join such a wonderful software company ???
Is it not a GREAT Employer Branding Strategy :
COME, JOIN US !!
WE are the # 1 Software Company in India !!
We ALSO SLAP the female colleagues in COMPANY CAFETERIA !!!!
- Also, some companies provide "dating allowance"; but do they also provide salary for using the office cafeteria for such personal discussions for long frequent hours ???
(If you assume, it was official discussion, during which a female gets slapped around, then its fine !)
- I think one must also understand on how the girl was "pressurized/influenced" to put up the FALSE EXCUSE that she "pinched" him which resulted in the slap.
On a more "empathical" front :
- How many male members of CiteHR would have any of their unmarried female relative (sister/ daughter etc) continue in such a situation and how many female members would be happy to have the colleague/boyfriend of their unmarried female relative (or self, if unmarried) have a relationship of 5 years and then getting slapped in company cafeteria ???
what would one think of such a company if it allows (or even nurtures) such organization culture ???
The more you keep analyzing this issue, the deeper you go, one keeps finding that such acts should not be tolerated :
- it is bad for the company's image and culture as well as business as they depend heavily on this),
- ignoring/excusing such acts, is bad for the society at large (and companies function within the environment).
My interest in this thread turned to dismay, when I found how HR professionals can be affected by the "sheep" mentality of following the one ahead; without applying any reason or logic; and building upon or extending what othe one ahead has said.
Apart from challenging the management's decision, we find some suggestions such as :
- "they should go to the Labour Inspector" : without commenting on this and initiating the debate on "whether considered workman or not"; I would say it is unlikely that S/W professionals of a Tier -I company would be happy doing this.
As can be seen in my other posts, I have always stood for the cause of employees, 'principles of natural justice' and 'fairness' as I find members recommending/discussing such issues which harm the interest of employees, such as :
- bifurcating the minimum wages into several heads (so as to reduce payments of statutory dues and benefits which rests on Basic Pay)
- including the intervening holidyas and closed days during a spell of leave (so as to reduce the leave balance); steps to prevent accumulation and encashment of leaves
- denial of maternity benefits etc.
Here, I find the same arguments being used in a wrong situation.
This is an incidence "which would shake the collective conscience" and thus would pass the scrutiny of law in case of termination. One must note that there are provisions of "exemplary punishments" and also the concept of having a saving clause in the Standing Orders while giving the list of misconducts as "including but not restricted to" about the "misconducts not covered under those specified".
Also, as (Cite Contribution) has pointed out, the fact about "employment at will" in Private sectors, and also "In a software firm the environment remains sensitive. Even very little behaviour comes under the scanner. The HR’s have to be doubly sure of employee behaviour in office premises. It sets the code of conduct for them."
Why should there be a job security for employees arguing in cafeteria and indulging in violent "un-appetising" activity ??
are not employees in private sector been terminated for lesser 'crimes' ??
If you do not believe, "research" and you"ll find countless such cases and also cases where the very same HR's recommend termination with impunity under the garb of "ENFORCING DISCIPLINE" ?? If an employee is coming late (one knows how frequently urban transport and traffic jams cause this) or has been absent (due to reasons/tragedies not under his control); its all right to TERMINATE HIM AND MAKE HIS FAMILY SUFFER ??!!
However, when a young professional employees indulge in such activities, as the one depicted; during company time, within ciompany premises; should not a company take appropriate action, under such extenuation circumstances or let the general impression that "everything goes here; if you are working hard, you can do whatever you want including slapping other employees !!"
I find a general lack of perspective and 'looking at the larger picture'.
However what I find uplifting is a few stray voice of dissent, based on cool rationality, which helps in avoiding it to de-generate (term as used in linear programming); like the ones submitted by abksatara, giridhar alwar, babsi, yuyudin,MaryAnn Drego, pravinpraj, oohey, akmathur13, gbvarik07, ramachandraiah satishan.
It is good to have a good heart; but much better to apply a clear mind in professional situations.
Those who may feel hurt at my opinion, and there would be many considering the 119 posts; I would like to clarify that I am only performing my duties as a moderator; and I find the views in this most popular and active thread; getting lop-sided or skewed in one direction; which among other things, may discourage others from presenting a different view-point.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
1) Termination of this sort is not at all fair.. and against natural justice.. if ur company is so much hell bent on discipline.. first HR should have at most suspended them pending enquiry.. and post that domestic enquiry could have been conducted.. and during enquiry when both the parties (boy and girl) wont have any problem considering the discipline..management can think of giving warning. or at most suspend for 3-4 days.. but no termination.. its highly inhuman.. and specially when u are dealing with young people.. freshly out of college..u can expect this tits and bits..
2) we had a small fight amongst two GET,s both guys.. and one just threatened to beat the other one up.. we dint even issued ne notice.. a strong verbal warning from top management was enough for them to maintain discipline..
3) also HR should check that whether these two ppl were involved in any indiscipline in past?? and then take such extreme decision..
Regards
Dhananjay Bhandari
Human Resources
Hindalco Industries Ltd
From India, Pune
2) we had a small fight amongst two GET,s both guys.. and one just threatened to beat the other one up.. we dint even issued ne notice.. a strong verbal warning from top management was enough for them to maintain discipline..
3) also HR should check that whether these two ppl were involved in any indiscipline in past?? and then take such extreme decision..
Regards
Dhananjay Bhandari
Human Resources
Hindalco Industries Ltd
From India, Pune
Dear friends,
I'm very thankful to you all for giving your opinions.either them nor i justified their mistake,but our only concern is the way the HR taken this matter to their senior HR and is this severe punishment really required?I would like to add few more details which many have asked.
1.Both of their manager never expected that they will be terminated for this behaviour.they thought they will be suspended.
2.Only one HR interacted with them and demanded a written letter.they gave the apology letter stating all truth believing that HR will forgive them.this took place on thursday.The girl was asked to come on friday and the boy was asked to come on monday to know the decision taken by the panel.
3.On monday they called both and told that they were terminated and asked them to apply for resignation.Please note they were never given a chance to express their views to the panel.Panel took the decision based on how it was explained by the HR.
4.The 2 associates who complained to HR didnt gave any written statement and they were also not involved in the panel discussion.
5.Our manager escalated this to the senior management it seems senor management have instructed the HR(not in a polite manner) to leave the associates,manager was so confident that he called the boy on saturday and told their will be only suspension no need to worry.
6.the HR took this to the Director of HR and narrated that there were many present in cafeteria when this happened and the girl cried and ran away(which never happened).
7.The decision was taken without involving the 2 persons involved and those 2 persons who seen this..is this the way to investigate an incident?
8.whatever the senior HR heard, is from the HR perspective who didnt had better knowledge than the person seen and involved.Senior HR took the decision based on HR point of view.is this right?
9.both the boys and girl senior associates and manager openely told that this changed into ego clash between management and HR since our senior management spoke with a higher tone to leave you guys.
10.leave me i'm still young and i'm emotional for my friends,but do you think those experienced managers and senior associates are blind to support them against termination?
11.They sent mail to to VC and Director of HR seeking for forgiveness but no response from them.Many are telling that in such a big organization VC's assistance only see the mails and there are very less chances for the mail to be seen by him.
12.The discusion with the manager was done through mail thread.didnt even a face to face discussion.
13.They have only cantact to their immediate HR,thats the sad part.
14.In our organization we have many verticals like banking,media,retail etc..each vertical has its own HR.
15.infact managers and other associates in other verticals are laughing on hearing this,they are telling they have seen many more worse think than this.
16.Both of them didnt get involved earlier in any incident,infact if that boy would have stayed he would have got the associate of the month for our vertical,he was the top contender for that,thats why our manager and senior associates gave them full suppport,since he was good at workplace.
To all i'm not saying they didnt do any mistake,they did a mistake,but the way HR presented the matter to the higher officials is the disheartening fact,is this fair to showcase a incident in a such rude and harsh manner and elobrating it such that the hearing people will vote for them?
They are searching for a job,the problem they are facing are lack interview chances for the following reason.
1.Experience less than 1 year,so they are not allowed to attend interview for experienced.
2.they are 2009 passout and since 2010 passouts came out 2009 passouts are not considered for fresher recruitment.
3.If they get a chance what they will tell the reason for resining in 9 months?no reason will be accepted since all HR very well know that no one will quit their job from a TIER-1 company inside 1 yr.
4.The girl got caught in mainframe technology where there is less openeing comparing to dotnet,java etc.
i thank you all for coming forwrard to help them
From India, Madras
I'm very thankful to you all for giving your opinions.either them nor i justified their mistake,but our only concern is the way the HR taken this matter to their senior HR and is this severe punishment really required?I would like to add few more details which many have asked.
1.Both of their manager never expected that they will be terminated for this behaviour.they thought they will be suspended.
2.Only one HR interacted with them and demanded a written letter.they gave the apology letter stating all truth believing that HR will forgive them.this took place on thursday.The girl was asked to come on friday and the boy was asked to come on monday to know the decision taken by the panel.
3.On monday they called both and told that they were terminated and asked them to apply for resignation.Please note they were never given a chance to express their views to the panel.Panel took the decision based on how it was explained by the HR.
4.The 2 associates who complained to HR didnt gave any written statement and they were also not involved in the panel discussion.
5.Our manager escalated this to the senior management it seems senor management have instructed the HR(not in a polite manner) to leave the associates,manager was so confident that he called the boy on saturday and told their will be only suspension no need to worry.
6.the HR took this to the Director of HR and narrated that there were many present in cafeteria when this happened and the girl cried and ran away(which never happened).
7.The decision was taken without involving the 2 persons involved and those 2 persons who seen this..is this the way to investigate an incident?
8.whatever the senior HR heard, is from the HR perspective who didnt had better knowledge than the person seen and involved.Senior HR took the decision based on HR point of view.is this right?
9.both the boys and girl senior associates and manager openely told that this changed into ego clash between management and HR since our senior management spoke with a higher tone to leave you guys.
10.leave me i'm still young and i'm emotional for my friends,but do you think those experienced managers and senior associates are blind to support them against termination?
11.They sent mail to to VC and Director of HR seeking for forgiveness but no response from them.Many are telling that in such a big organization VC's assistance only see the mails and there are very less chances for the mail to be seen by him.
12.The discusion with the manager was done through mail thread.didnt even a face to face discussion.
13.They have only cantact to their immediate HR,thats the sad part.
14.In our organization we have many verticals like banking,media,retail etc..each vertical has its own HR.
15.infact managers and other associates in other verticals are laughing on hearing this,they are telling they have seen many more worse think than this.
16.Both of them didnt get involved earlier in any incident,infact if that boy would have stayed he would have got the associate of the month for our vertical,he was the top contender for that,thats why our manager and senior associates gave them full suppport,since he was good at workplace.
To all i'm not saying they didnt do any mistake,they did a mistake,but the way HR presented the matter to the higher officials is the disheartening fact,is this fair to showcase a incident in a such rude and harsh manner and elobrating it such that the hearing people will vote for them?
They are searching for a job,the problem they are facing are lack interview chances for the following reason.
1.Experience less than 1 year,so they are not allowed to attend interview for experienced.
2.they are 2009 passout and since 2010 passouts came out 2009 passouts are not considered for fresher recruitment.
3.If they get a chance what they will tell the reason for resining in 9 months?no reason will be accepted since all HR very well know that no one will quit their job from a TIER-1 company inside 1 yr.
4.The girl got caught in mainframe technology where there is less openeing comparing to dotnet,java etc.
i thank you all for coming forwrard to help them
From India, Madras
Dear friends, Please PM your private mail id if you think you can help that girl in getting job either in chennai or in bangalore.her stream is mainframe.
From India, Madras
From India, Madras
Hi,
I feel the action taken by the HR is not justified. There should be a complainant for any problem to arise and investigation to be conducted. In this case both the boy and the girl has not complained to the concerned authorities as they might have quarreled for a silly reason and thought it is not of such a great consequence and they might have settled the issue among themselves. Based on somebody's complaint the HR has acted!! I feel HR has only taken the negetive aspect of the whole issue(as there was no complaint from the sufferer) and has totally forgotten the good work done by them and issued termination orders. This seems to be very unethical. Instead the HR would have asked both of them whether they have any complaint to make. But sometimes, the HR people decides the action wrongly and tries to justify the act without giving room to humanitarian issues.
-Srinaren
From India, Bangalore
I feel the action taken by the HR is not justified. There should be a complainant for any problem to arise and investigation to be conducted. In this case both the boy and the girl has not complained to the concerned authorities as they might have quarreled for a silly reason and thought it is not of such a great consequence and they might have settled the issue among themselves. Based on somebody's complaint the HR has acted!! I feel HR has only taken the negetive aspect of the whole issue(as there was no complaint from the sufferer) and has totally forgotten the good work done by them and issued termination orders. This seems to be very unethical. Instead the HR would have asked both of them whether they have any complaint to make. But sometimes, the HR people decides the action wrongly and tries to justify the act without giving room to humanitarian issues.
-Srinaren
From India, Bangalore
I don't think HR imposed the correct punishment to this violation. Even if companies have the prerogative to determine the kind of punishment to be meted out to erring employees, they should still be within the bounds of existing laws. Termination is a harsher penalty than what is deserved by the act of slapping and pinching, even if it is done in public. Company should have taken into consideration the fact that this a first violation. I think reprimand would have been enough to straighten them out.
From India, Calcutta
From India, Calcutta
Dear Moni,
There is one serious flaw in the action of HR, as pointed out in your detail now. At point 3 of your detailed story, you have stated that the employees were told that they were terminated, and also stated that they were asked to resign. These TWO THINGS cannot happen at a time. Both the concerned boy and girl need not submit resignation but should insist on asking for issue of termination letters if they have really been terminated.
The boy and girl do not seem either to have been terminated, or the consent of the top brass taken for the proposed action. It seems, the HR is playing some unethical & dirty game at their own, may be in order to accommodate their own candidates or he candidates of their own senior boss in the resultant vacancies.
So, once they give their resignation letters, they won't have any claim for their jobs, as the management would have the plea that both of them resigned voluntarily and would be able to save their its skin for such a harsh step for such a minor lapse.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
09968076381
[dcgroup1962@gmail.com]
From India, Delhi
There is one serious flaw in the action of HR, as pointed out in your detail now. At point 3 of your detailed story, you have stated that the employees were told that they were terminated, and also stated that they were asked to resign. These TWO THINGS cannot happen at a time. Both the concerned boy and girl need not submit resignation but should insist on asking for issue of termination letters if they have really been terminated.
The boy and girl do not seem either to have been terminated, or the consent of the top brass taken for the proposed action. It seems, the HR is playing some unethical & dirty game at their own, may be in order to accommodate their own candidates or he candidates of their own senior boss in the resultant vacancies.
So, once they give their resignation letters, they won't have any claim for their jobs, as the management would have the plea that both of them resigned voluntarily and would be able to save their its skin for such a harsh step for such a minor lapse.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
09968076381
[dcgroup1962@gmail.com]
From India, Delhi
Hi Raj Kumar,
Bravo! Indeed yours is a befitting reply to the comments of Mr. Safaya and several others who seem to have commented without properly going through the comments of several others and made their one-sided opinion.
From India, Delhi
Bravo! Indeed yours is a befitting reply to the comments of Mr. Safaya and several others who seem to have commented without properly going through the comments of several others and made their one-sided opinion.
From India, Delhi
Is this the right punishment?
It's really refreshing to hear most of the posts coming into this link/thread, are indeed borne of positive thinking, and constructive convictions, not only for the cause of the women employee, but even towards the male employee. Thanks to many a posts, whose authors seems to be in a better position to counsel the male employee(for slapping), to rectify his conduct, even as nobody knows really if the women employee, who was/is at the receiving end is guilty as such, and if so, to what extent. But, the paradox being what it is, it is sad to realize that, quite perhaps, even a few of the HR people, too need counseling for their ' inside the den surmising '.
The irony is that it is these few, who ironically champion the cause of ' out of the box thinking ', as a precious most value, which is taught as a lesson, in their HR training and orientation. ' Enforcing discipline ', is just an alibi/cover for the misguided HR functionaries, to come down heavily on helpless/innocent one time erring employees. The reasons are obvious, that they fear the management, under the misconceived assumptions that, all the managements are always autocratic, and that their interest lies in misreporting the truth/blindly supporting the management for the reasons best known to them, especially in cases of this nature. It's not far difficult to find instances, where value centered(not discipline hardened) HR/functionaries, have even walked out of organizations, where managements were very highhandedly dealing against the interests and concerns of employees and managers
A weak minded HR can never influence an informed or uninformed management, to adopt a correct course of positive action towards the employees, leave alone the alleged erring and wrong ones. He is the one who being in his own shell, more remains a part of the problem, but never a part of the solution. The old adage rightly fits in to his scheme of things which says that, ' in between the God and devotee, there still remains a priest, who is the first to dispose off the case of the devotee, no wonder even if it goes against God's wish.
Now, coming to one vital point of dealing with such an employee's alleged misconduct if proved against him is, ' to take an over all view of the employee's case ', that is his entire track record of the service, apart from only and one alleged/misconduct. In this case, but for this incident, the track records/performance of both the employees are excellent, as according to their superiors/managers. Their apology, together with a suitable reassurance on their part to the organization, is adequate to close this case, which touches upon both the interests of the organization and employee.
The over zealous misapprehensions of few of the HRs, Managements and their likes, that any mitigating factors going in favor of the employee, but are against the organizational culture, is quite misplaced and even sordidly imaginary. There can seldom be an ideal dealing situation, in handling disciplinary cases. It's the prime most duty of the HR, whether he is the single individual or the Department, to create ideal terms, particularly while of this type. He or she i.e the HR should know that, he or she can either create a devil or the God of an erring employee.
What if, if either the boy or the girl, or even both would have had the solid backing of some influential and powerful backing of a heavy weight person in the society. What if, if such an unfortunate termination of service is given to our own sister, and may even be an erring brother, under the cover of collecting a confession from them, but under disguised duress and captive coercion. Do we then still give short and long sermons on ' Discipline ' and ' organizational/culture?. In such of this case, the guiding heart of the HR/Management, should prompt application of their mind, if serious about generating human resources, than just have only figure head HR, who cannot discern right and wrong, under a developing situation in a given context.
Much is spoken about IT industry and all that in this link/thread by few friends, to drive home that only it's working/service conditions are very tough and worthy. Satyam Company still exists in the operative environment despite it's scams, indulged in by the higher ups. It's reputation, even the country's IT reputation did receive a severe beating. But, when there has been a course correction for Satyam to rebuild things at the very macro level, why is it then the HR/s find it so difficult, to constructively and positively handle this case, which is devoid of any fraud. misappropriation, malpractices, loss, pecuniary benefit, undue favor, malafide, threats to the staff/managers/company, and all that.
Well, I do not know for certain, if few of the HR friends who have taken a contrary position, if introspect. Yet, I definitely consider spending my quality time on this post quite worthy. No wonder then, even if the result may go bad, but the prayer is secured, as great many posts received under this link/thread, indicates a trend that people working in the organizations are mostly positive. This, even if a few of the HRs by themselves, make their way difficult to adept to this trend, and still remain as exceptions to the generally accepted functional norms.
For, after all, exceptions prove the rule.
From India, Mumbai
It's really refreshing to hear most of the posts coming into this link/thread, are indeed borne of positive thinking, and constructive convictions, not only for the cause of the women employee, but even towards the male employee. Thanks to many a posts, whose authors seems to be in a better position to counsel the male employee(for slapping), to rectify his conduct, even as nobody knows really if the women employee, who was/is at the receiving end is guilty as such, and if so, to what extent. But, the paradox being what it is, it is sad to realize that, quite perhaps, even a few of the HR people, too need counseling for their ' inside the den surmising '.
The irony is that it is these few, who ironically champion the cause of ' out of the box thinking ', as a precious most value, which is taught as a lesson, in their HR training and orientation. ' Enforcing discipline ', is just an alibi/cover for the misguided HR functionaries, to come down heavily on helpless/innocent one time erring employees. The reasons are obvious, that they fear the management, under the misconceived assumptions that, all the managements are always autocratic, and that their interest lies in misreporting the truth/blindly supporting the management for the reasons best known to them, especially in cases of this nature. It's not far difficult to find instances, where value centered(not discipline hardened) HR/functionaries, have even walked out of organizations, where managements were very highhandedly dealing against the interests and concerns of employees and managers
A weak minded HR can never influence an informed or uninformed management, to adopt a correct course of positive action towards the employees, leave alone the alleged erring and wrong ones. He is the one who being in his own shell, more remains a part of the problem, but never a part of the solution. The old adage rightly fits in to his scheme of things which says that, ' in between the God and devotee, there still remains a priest, who is the first to dispose off the case of the devotee, no wonder even if it goes against God's wish.
Now, coming to one vital point of dealing with such an employee's alleged misconduct if proved against him is, ' to take an over all view of the employee's case ', that is his entire track record of the service, apart from only and one alleged/misconduct. In this case, but for this incident, the track records/performance of both the employees are excellent, as according to their superiors/managers. Their apology, together with a suitable reassurance on their part to the organization, is adequate to close this case, which touches upon both the interests of the organization and employee.
The over zealous misapprehensions of few of the HRs, Managements and their likes, that any mitigating factors going in favor of the employee, but are against the organizational culture, is quite misplaced and even sordidly imaginary. There can seldom be an ideal dealing situation, in handling disciplinary cases. It's the prime most duty of the HR, whether he is the single individual or the Department, to create ideal terms, particularly while of this type. He or she i.e the HR should know that, he or she can either create a devil or the God of an erring employee.
What if, if either the boy or the girl, or even both would have had the solid backing of some influential and powerful backing of a heavy weight person in the society. What if, if such an unfortunate termination of service is given to our own sister, and may even be an erring brother, under the cover of collecting a confession from them, but under disguised duress and captive coercion. Do we then still give short and long sermons on ' Discipline ' and ' organizational/culture?. In such of this case, the guiding heart of the HR/Management, should prompt application of their mind, if serious about generating human resources, than just have only figure head HR, who cannot discern right and wrong, under a developing situation in a given context.
Much is spoken about IT industry and all that in this link/thread by few friends, to drive home that only it's working/service conditions are very tough and worthy. Satyam Company still exists in the operative environment despite it's scams, indulged in by the higher ups. It's reputation, even the country's IT reputation did receive a severe beating. But, when there has been a course correction for Satyam to rebuild things at the very macro level, why is it then the HR/s find it so difficult, to constructively and positively handle this case, which is devoid of any fraud. misappropriation, malpractices, loss, pecuniary benefit, undue favor, malafide, threats to the staff/managers/company, and all that.
Well, I do not know for certain, if few of the HR friends who have taken a contrary position, if introspect. Yet, I definitely consider spending my quality time on this post quite worthy. No wonder then, even if the result may go bad, but the prayer is secured, as great many posts received under this link/thread, indicates a trend that people working in the organizations are mostly positive. This, even if a few of the HRs by themselves, make their way difficult to adept to this trend, and still remain as exceptions to the generally accepted functional norms.
For, after all, exceptions prove the rule.
From India, Mumbai
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