warning could have been given. sometimes we dont the management action ...it depends on the management attitude rather than the rules thanks, s.narasimhan
From India, Bangalore
8From India, Bangalore
both are going to management and say MCMC.
I just wnated to share an incident happenend in my company which
involved my friend and wnated to ur opnion whether the punishment
is right?
I wrok in one of the TIER-1 software company,2 of my friends(boy
and girl) had a heated conversation which resulted in the boy
slapping the girl.This incident took place in cafeteria.They knew
each other for past 5 year,so the boy appologised her and she left
the incident go,didnt made any complaint.But 2 of associate who
were present in the cafeteria complained it to the HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write appology letter
stating the incident to avoid punishment.The boy wrote that he
slapped once and the girl wrote that she pinched the boy so he
slapped her.Upon getting the letter they asked both to leave.
Next day they called and told that they have been terminated.
is this the right punishment?they have only 10 months of
experience.how will they get a job with that?they cant even apply
as fresher since they are 2009 passouts.
when that girl questioned her termination HR simply said that you
have given a written statement of pinching him so we are
terminating you and the boy for slapping you.
My seniors and managers feel that they are hard done.
now the girl is sitting at home with her future in doubt.[/QUOTE]
From India, Calcutta
I just wnated to share an incident happenend in my company which
involved my friend and wnated to ur opnion whether the punishment
is right?
I wrok in one of the TIER-1 software company,2 of my friends(boy
and girl) had a heated conversation which resulted in the boy
slapping the girl.This incident took place in cafeteria.They knew
each other for past 5 year,so the boy appologised her and she left
the incident go,didnt made any complaint.But 2 of associate who
were present in the cafeteria complained it to the HR.
HR called both of them and asked them to write appology letter
stating the incident to avoid punishment.The boy wrote that he
slapped once and the girl wrote that she pinched the boy so he
slapped her.Upon getting the letter they asked both to leave.
Next day they called and told that they have been terminated.
is this the right punishment?they have only 10 months of
experience.how will they get a job with that?they cant even apply
as fresher since they are 2009 passouts.
when that girl questioned her termination HR simply said that you
have given a written statement of pinching him so we are
terminating you and the boy for slapping you.
My seniors and managers feel that they are hard done.
now the girl is sitting at home with her future in doubt.[/QUOTE]
From India, Calcutta
my dear young fellows,
i hav read all the comments on this topic offered so far and i feel that none of them have been offered keeping the view the incident in a dispassionate way . Also none hav reacted keeping in view the interest of the company. Anyway my comments are :-
1) The conduct of both the employees at a public place(canteen)is unacceptable as it vitiates the work atmosphere and strains the work culture of company.
2) The canteen breaks are for relaxation and networking and not for venting your anger . More so physical abuse with co workers in any form is unacceptable.
3. Work ethics and personal conduct are pillars of an employee working and can not be compromised at any cost.
Ck Safaya
Advocate and HR consultant
From India, New Delhi
i hav read all the comments on this topic offered so far and i feel that none of them have been offered keeping the view the incident in a dispassionate way . Also none hav reacted keeping in view the interest of the company. Anyway my comments are :-
1) The conduct of both the employees at a public place(canteen)is unacceptable as it vitiates the work atmosphere and strains the work culture of company.
2) The canteen breaks are for relaxation and networking and not for venting your anger . More so physical abuse with co workers in any form is unacceptable.
3. Work ethics and personal conduct are pillars of an employee working and can not be compromised at any cost.
Ck Safaya
Advocate and HR consultant
From India, New Delhi
First of all the conduct & discipline rules of the company or the certified standing orders of the company or the HR policy of the organization dealing with aspects of discipline need to be verified.It is to be seen whether the procedure laid therein in dealing with such cases has been complied or not The terms and conditions of their appointment are also to be verified as it forms a contract between the company and them.It appears, that the management in the instant case has resorted to termination simpliicitor or simple discharge .The apex court has in a few cases relating to public sectors held that such a clause of discharge simplicitor is illegal and unconstitutional as it gives unbridled power to the management and is subject to abuse by them.It held that such clause is arbitrary and capricious and liable to be used by the management at its whims and fancies.Whatever it may be, the principles of natural justice demand that no person shall be condemned unless heard.In cases misconducts committed by an employee is to call for an explanation and institute a deptal inquiry if the explanation is found to be unsatisfactory. Further, the punishment should be proportionate to the gravity of the misconduct alleged to have been committed and the past record of the employee needs to be taken into consideration before awarding any punishment.In the circumstances,it would be prudent on the part of the employees first to make a polite representation and in case there is no favorable response to raise a dispute before the labour commissioner concerned. This however would be a time consuming and long drawn course.
From India, Hyderabad
From India, Hyderabad
Dear All,
The action taken by HR is by terminating them for the said reason is absolutely wrong. I dont' agree in any standing orders framed that the employee can be terminated for slapping. They could have asked for explanation even if HR have not satisfied with their explanation they can warn them not to repeat in furture. HR has made injustice to them. When their HOD's are recommending for warning how HR has taken such a decision to terminate? I suggest both of them can meet their top management with the help of their HOD'S and address their grievence instead of giving complaint to the Labour Officer. Hope the top management can do the justice for them.
Thanks
E.K.Srinivas
From India, Hyderabad
The action taken by HR is by terminating them for the said reason is absolutely wrong. I dont' agree in any standing orders framed that the employee can be terminated for slapping. They could have asked for explanation even if HR have not satisfied with their explanation they can warn them not to repeat in furture. HR has made injustice to them. When their HOD's are recommending for warning how HR has taken such a decision to terminate? I suggest both of them can meet their top management with the help of their HOD'S and address their grievence instead of giving complaint to the Labour Officer. Hope the top management can do the justice for them.
Thanks
E.K.Srinivas
From India, Hyderabad
dear
first of there should be some kind of disciplinary code of conduct.
second - there should be some complaint and there should be enquiry and the enquiry officer to be impartial
- opportunity should be given to them to state their case
-the findings of the EO should be given to them and a show cause notice to them, if they are found guilty, seeking explanation why the proposed punishment should not thrust on them.
- all said and done the termination is capital punishment , which will not be given unless the circumstances are very severe.
- there will be some provision for appeal within the organisation
- there are always labour authorities, labour courts as last resort.
so ask them to file an appeal to the management, if not raise an industrial dispute before the labour authorities or labour court.
But all persons in HR may not simply agree for the punishment,i don't think all are such high handed individuals.so pl check
dr nagaraj
From India, Bangalore
first of there should be some kind of disciplinary code of conduct.
second - there should be some complaint and there should be enquiry and the enquiry officer to be impartial
- opportunity should be given to them to state their case
-the findings of the EO should be given to them and a show cause notice to them, if they are found guilty, seeking explanation why the proposed punishment should not thrust on them.
- all said and done the termination is capital punishment , which will not be given unless the circumstances are very severe.
- there will be some provision for appeal within the organisation
- there are always labour authorities, labour courts as last resort.
so ask them to file an appeal to the management, if not raise an industrial dispute before the labour authorities or labour court.
But all persons in HR may not simply agree for the punishment,i don't think all are such high handed individuals.so pl check
dr nagaraj
From India, Bangalore
Dear manikandan, Can you let me know the company name. I will check with HR. I have good contacts in IT industry. regards, Raghu
From India, Hyderabad
From India, Hyderabad
IS THIS THE RIGHT PUNISHMENT?
Absolutely not. The crux of HR ( Human Resources ), and or the person heading that department worth it is, should be partner in the organization to generate and create certain irrevocable values, value additions, and human capital. ' Good God ', but here is a case wherein the HR ( It may be that Department or it's Head ), does not appear to be even very remotely safeguarding these virtues, so dearer to any ' Organization ', worthy of being called as such. Such a thing can happen only in a misdirected group/s, who rigidly believe in ' Caprice ', than but not what is called as ' Natural Justice '.
' Nobody should be condemned without being heard ', is the first cannon of this Natural Justice. A value-centered HR is supposed to exhaust this remedy, before coming to any conclusion, to determine the nature and extent of guilt if any, before coming to a conclusion thereon such an allegation as such, leave alone deciding the punishment thereof all by himself. Discipline, is only one ingredient of a set of organizational values. But, certainly that by itself, is not the whole organizational value. it's just like saying all post-graduates are graduates, but not all graduates are post-graduates. Admitted, even if such an allegation is proved in total, ( even as both the employees have expressed regret and remorse ), the punishment should not be so disproportionate, to impose a capital punishment for them. For that matter, any punishment awarded relating to a proved small or serious allegation, should be justifiably commensurate with the nature of misconduct committed by the employee minor or major.
In this case, to start with the HR should have necessarily exercised the core value of what is called ' Organizational counseling ' ( Introspection Focus, as to how such an unpalatable incident affects employee's morale and organizational culture ) to both the concerned employees, like any right thinking and progressive organization.
If at all, had he not been satisfied with their response, to such an employees' counseling, ( which is certainly not the case here ) he should have sought an explanation from them. With this. the employees themselves will mostly plead defensive, because their undertaking/assertions will be in conclusive writing, but not just merely in oral. Almost in all such cases, 99.99% the organizations closes the case, by suitably warning/cautioning the employee, not to repeat such breach of discipline in future, in their own interest. ( Here again, the place of alleged misconduct was outside the work/office place, and there is no tangible loss of reputation, which can be construed as detrimental to the company's interests. Therefore the plea of discipline on the part of the HR/Company is only whimsical and far fetched. In fact, it is the other way round for both the employees, where their very means of livelihood was vehemently and blatantly knocked away by the Company/HR with a single stroke. )
Now, even the so loosely spoken show cause appearing in this thread/link comes into the scene, only after exhausting this remedy. But, not before this. The reason being the ' show cause ', forewarns the employee with likely disciplinary/ action against him, when a strong prima facie case exists, which has the effect of badly affecting the career graph and service of the employee, but that again not at the very loss of the job as such.
The charge-sheet only follows thereafter seeking employees statement of defense, if his/her explanation in writing is not found to be satisfactory or when there are no signs of employees self reformation/organizational reformation. so to say. once again sticking/justifying to his/her negative behavior/bad attitude, but not assuring the employer of not repeating such a breach of discipline.
Thereafter, a departmental inquiry will be called for, giving equal opportunity to the charge sheeted employee/officer to defend himself. Depending upon the inquiry findings, when guilt is proved with cogent reasons, punishment will then be awarded only by the authority, called the ' Disciplinary Authority ', through his ' Speaking Order '. Even here, the employee can make an appeal against the order and punishment, to the next higher authority, to be merciful.
Let the few friends in this link/thread to whom discipline is so sacrosanct as to justify the utterly misguided HR's arbitrary/infamous action, realize that ( while refreshingly many other friends in no uncertain terms expressed their total dismay/gross displeasure at HR's summary termination of the two employees ) realize that in all such inconclusive ( undocumented ) cases, ' the benefit of doubt ' goes to the employee but not to the employer.
Therefore let both the aggrieved employees meet the highest authority in the organization, if possible with a senior/manager who gave good performance appraisals on them, along with a suitable written representation, appealing against gross injustice meted out to them. But, let that happen with a prior appointment. And, this should not be the end of the tunnel, as both the employees should seriously search for an alternate employment, keeping the options open of engaging the services of an advocate specialist in disciplinary matters, and also that of a responsible print media like Indian Express, Business Standard and Economic times for further followup with the company.
From India, Mumbai
Absolutely not. The crux of HR ( Human Resources ), and or the person heading that department worth it is, should be partner in the organization to generate and create certain irrevocable values, value additions, and human capital. ' Good God ', but here is a case wherein the HR ( It may be that Department or it's Head ), does not appear to be even very remotely safeguarding these virtues, so dearer to any ' Organization ', worthy of being called as such. Such a thing can happen only in a misdirected group/s, who rigidly believe in ' Caprice ', than but not what is called as ' Natural Justice '.
' Nobody should be condemned without being heard ', is the first cannon of this Natural Justice. A value-centered HR is supposed to exhaust this remedy, before coming to any conclusion, to determine the nature and extent of guilt if any, before coming to a conclusion thereon such an allegation as such, leave alone deciding the punishment thereof all by himself. Discipline, is only one ingredient of a set of organizational values. But, certainly that by itself, is not the whole organizational value. it's just like saying all post-graduates are graduates, but not all graduates are post-graduates. Admitted, even if such an allegation is proved in total, ( even as both the employees have expressed regret and remorse ), the punishment should not be so disproportionate, to impose a capital punishment for them. For that matter, any punishment awarded relating to a proved small or serious allegation, should be justifiably commensurate with the nature of misconduct committed by the employee minor or major.
In this case, to start with the HR should have necessarily exercised the core value of what is called ' Organizational counseling ' ( Introspection Focus, as to how such an unpalatable incident affects employee's morale and organizational culture ) to both the concerned employees, like any right thinking and progressive organization.
If at all, had he not been satisfied with their response, to such an employees' counseling, ( which is certainly not the case here ) he should have sought an explanation from them. With this. the employees themselves will mostly plead defensive, because their undertaking/assertions will be in conclusive writing, but not just merely in oral. Almost in all such cases, 99.99% the organizations closes the case, by suitably warning/cautioning the employee, not to repeat such breach of discipline in future, in their own interest. ( Here again, the place of alleged misconduct was outside the work/office place, and there is no tangible loss of reputation, which can be construed as detrimental to the company's interests. Therefore the plea of discipline on the part of the HR/Company is only whimsical and far fetched. In fact, it is the other way round for both the employees, where their very means of livelihood was vehemently and blatantly knocked away by the Company/HR with a single stroke. )
Now, even the so loosely spoken show cause appearing in this thread/link comes into the scene, only after exhausting this remedy. But, not before this. The reason being the ' show cause ', forewarns the employee with likely disciplinary/ action against him, when a strong prima facie case exists, which has the effect of badly affecting the career graph and service of the employee, but that again not at the very loss of the job as such.
The charge-sheet only follows thereafter seeking employees statement of defense, if his/her explanation in writing is not found to be satisfactory or when there are no signs of employees self reformation/organizational reformation. so to say. once again sticking/justifying to his/her negative behavior/bad attitude, but not assuring the employer of not repeating such a breach of discipline.
Thereafter, a departmental inquiry will be called for, giving equal opportunity to the charge sheeted employee/officer to defend himself. Depending upon the inquiry findings, when guilt is proved with cogent reasons, punishment will then be awarded only by the authority, called the ' Disciplinary Authority ', through his ' Speaking Order '. Even here, the employee can make an appeal against the order and punishment, to the next higher authority, to be merciful.
Let the few friends in this link/thread to whom discipline is so sacrosanct as to justify the utterly misguided HR's arbitrary/infamous action, realize that ( while refreshingly many other friends in no uncertain terms expressed their total dismay/gross displeasure at HR's summary termination of the two employees ) realize that in all such inconclusive ( undocumented ) cases, ' the benefit of doubt ' goes to the employee but not to the employer.
Therefore let both the aggrieved employees meet the highest authority in the organization, if possible with a senior/manager who gave good performance appraisals on them, along with a suitable written representation, appealing against gross injustice meted out to them. But, let that happen with a prior appointment. And, this should not be the end of the tunnel, as both the employees should seriously search for an alternate employment, keeping the options open of engaging the services of an advocate specialist in disciplinary matters, and also that of a responsible print media like Indian Express, Business Standard and Economic times for further followup with the company.
From India, Mumbai
Dear Viraj You have no rights to comment my kids, I know how to teach my kids, mind your words. Rajasekar
From India, Coimbatore
From India, Coimbatore
Hi,
In this case it is a clear violation of natural justice....Even the court of law too give an opportunity upholding the natural justice.... The HR might've thought by giving such a punishment no one would dare to repeat the same incident in public.....Its for sure that without management blessing such a decision would never come out from HR department.
masbee
From India
In this case it is a clear violation of natural justice....Even the court of law too give an opportunity upholding the natural justice.... The HR might've thought by giving such a punishment no one would dare to repeat the same incident in public.....Its for sure that without management blessing such a decision would never come out from HR department.
masbee
From India
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