I am a Sales Director with an office of 5 managers and 3 admin assistants. My number 2 manager---one of my very top employees---asks for vacation time 2 weeks prior to wanting time off, while the policy requires 30 days notice.
There are already people off that week in the office, and if allowed, this person to take time off, it will leave only 2 managers in the office when there are normally 6 people.
I suggested to the person to change their dates because we cannot allow for the lack of office coverage.
The employee says, "it doesn't matter what you say, I'm going."
She has been a great employee who goes above and beyond. I have allowed her as much as a month of vacation at one time (because she's from out of the country and has little time to get back to her family) and paid her for it because of the extra time she spends on the job.
However, everyone in the office is almost or just as good. Allowing her to get away with this will make others think they can act the same way. It's just not fair!
Should she be terminated? This would be a huge hardship if she's gone.
Acknowledge(0)
Amend(0)
There are already people off that week in the office, and if allowed, this person to take time off, it will leave only 2 managers in the office when there are normally 6 people.
I suggested to the person to change their dates because we cannot allow for the lack of office coverage.
The employee says, "it doesn't matter what you say, I'm going."
She has been a great employee who goes above and beyond. I have allowed her as much as a month of vacation at one time (because she's from out of the country and has little time to get back to her family) and paid her for it because of the extra time she spends on the job.
However, everyone in the office is almost or just as good. Allowing her to get away with this will make others think they can act the same way. It's just not fair!
Should she be terminated? This would be a huge hardship if she's gone.
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
You don't mention one important factor...why is this employee requesting leave at such short notice when the policy is for 30 days?
There may be some pressing personal reasons such as illness, relationship issues, burnout, etc. In which case, I think a bit of flexibility is appropriate.
However, if the employee is making this demand for a less pressing reason, or simply because she thinks she can, you have got problems. It doesn't matter how indispensable you think she is, the moment an employee starts to behave as if they are indispensable, you have a storehouse of trouble ahead. In this case, I would recommend applying a sanction. It may be that you regard her leave as leave without pay and "dock" her pay accordingly. Or you may decide that if she takes the leave without permission, then she is absent without leave and risking termination of employment.
You might think she is good value and indispensable, but if her attitude is one of blackmail, you might as well cut your losses now. How you respond will be watched by others, who will learn from what happens. What do you want them to learn?
Do you have the authority to apply sanctions? Should you seek the support of your executive/management? I suggest you get some advice and support so you are not "hung out to dry" over this issue.
LS
Progress Enterprise
From Australia, Ballarat
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
13There may be some pressing personal reasons such as illness, relationship issues, burnout, etc. In which case, I think a bit of flexibility is appropriate.
However, if the employee is making this demand for a less pressing reason, or simply because she thinks she can, you have got problems. It doesn't matter how indispensable you think she is, the moment an employee starts to behave as if they are indispensable, you have a storehouse of trouble ahead. In this case, I would recommend applying a sanction. It may be that you regard her leave as leave without pay and "dock" her pay accordingly. Or you may decide that if she takes the leave without permission, then she is absent without leave and risking termination of employment.
You might think she is good value and indispensable, but if her attitude is one of blackmail, you might as well cut your losses now. How you respond will be watched by others, who will learn from what happens. What do you want them to learn?
Do you have the authority to apply sanctions? Should you seek the support of your executive/management? I suggest you get some advice and support so you are not "hung out to dry" over this issue.
LS
Progress Enterprise
From Australia, Ballarat
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
She is requesting leave to meet her family in New York for vacation. Her family does live in another country, but I have been extremely lenient in the past—over Christmas, I let her off for a month to be with them and I paid her. I also let her go see them another time for 3 weeks and paid her—and she does not qualify for that much vacation. But, since she worked a ton of weekends and evenings, I felt it was justified.
Her family was originally going to come to see her, but for personal reasons, she did not want them in town. There is mainly one day that it is going to be really bad for her to be gone, and I told her to try and work around that day and we could make it work. She said she couldn't.
Yes, I definitely have the authority to apply sanctions. My plan is to decline the vacation request, dock her pay, and give her a written warning for insubordination. My superiors will support my decisions but also see her as a valuable employee. They are disappointed but don't want to lose her.
My big concern is the wedge that this will put between us in our working relationship and, probably more, how it affects my other employees. I don't want them to think they can walk all over me and get by with the same attitude. I just wish there was some creative solution!
Thanks for the input and any more ideas!!!
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Her family was originally going to come to see her, but for personal reasons, she did not want them in town. There is mainly one day that it is going to be really bad for her to be gone, and I told her to try and work around that day and we could make it work. She said she couldn't.
Yes, I definitely have the authority to apply sanctions. My plan is to decline the vacation request, dock her pay, and give her a written warning for insubordination. My superiors will support my decisions but also see her as a valuable employee. They are disappointed but don't want to lose her.
My big concern is the wedge that this will put between us in our working relationship and, probably more, how it affects my other employees. I don't want them to think they can walk all over me and get by with the same attitude. I just wish there was some creative solution!
Thanks for the input and any more ideas!!!
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
A classic case study for balancing personal life and professional life from an employee's perspective and maintaining discipline yet not losing trust of a valuable employee.
The two aspects of this case are such that need to be balanced both by the employee concerned and the company.
On one hand, the employee needs to understand her importance in the organization and the responsibility to set examples for following company policy. A one-to-one interaction was the only possible way to make her understand, but the same did not work.
On the other hand, the management too needs to understand the personal commitments of the hardworking, committed, and dedicated employee towards her family, as many people and their plans get involved in this situation.
The only problem in this situation seems to be "What message will it give to others."
It can give a wrong message if not spread properly and can also leave a strong positive note for the "caring" attitude the company has for its dedicated performers when they need it the most. All depends on how manager #2 feels for the company.
Policies are meant as guidelines for "business processes," but business comes first, and even before that come people and their judgments of right and wrong.
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
The two aspects of this case are such that need to be balanced both by the employee concerned and the company.
On one hand, the employee needs to understand her importance in the organization and the responsibility to set examples for following company policy. A one-to-one interaction was the only possible way to make her understand, but the same did not work.
On the other hand, the management too needs to understand the personal commitments of the hardworking, committed, and dedicated employee towards her family, as many people and their plans get involved in this situation.
The only problem in this situation seems to be "What message will it give to others."
It can give a wrong message if not spread properly and can also leave a strong positive note for the "caring" attitude the company has for its dedicated performers when they need it the most. All depends on how manager #2 feels for the company.
Policies are meant as guidelines for "business processes," but business comes first, and even before that come people and their judgments of right and wrong.
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Hi all,
This is an interesting subject.
I am just curious - how was her attitude prior to this sudden disregard for office policy? Have you ever had such problems with her before? Is this the first time?
If your response is that she has always been a prime example, then there is more than meets the eye. She may be under certain duress that we do not know about.
Let's fit into this employee's shoes for a moment, assuming that she is clear about her place as an employee. Say we are faced with a domestic problem that is giving you a lot of stress and pressure. And it is becoming distracting. You desperately need to take this time off. You approach your superior concerning your leave. You are already frustrated, and the rejection may be the last straw that broke the camel’s back. And you just said awful things that just came out the wrong way. You may also be feeling disappointed with your boss because you think you deserve some consideration with all the contributions and profit that you made for the company.
Yes, the other employees will see how this case is handled. They may also be observing this case from a viewpoint that is, how valuable management considers their staff. Or are they just horses working the fields, slogging for the farmer and when too old to work, they are sent to the slaughterhouse. A thought, what if the other employees empathized with her situation? Management could turn out to be the Devil's Advocate.
Question again. Have you tried discussing with this employee, that the policy and rules are such, and the unfairness towards other employees if hers was approved? The implication of the situation that she has just placed the management? Discussing in confidence on the real reason for the leave, so that an alternative may be reached?
Just a little sharing and hope it gives you some ideas.
Regards
From Malaysia, Johor Bahru
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
This is an interesting subject.
I am just curious - how was her attitude prior to this sudden disregard for office policy? Have you ever had such problems with her before? Is this the first time?
If your response is that she has always been a prime example, then there is more than meets the eye. She may be under certain duress that we do not know about.
Let's fit into this employee's shoes for a moment, assuming that she is clear about her place as an employee. Say we are faced with a domestic problem that is giving you a lot of stress and pressure. And it is becoming distracting. You desperately need to take this time off. You approach your superior concerning your leave. You are already frustrated, and the rejection may be the last straw that broke the camel’s back. And you just said awful things that just came out the wrong way. You may also be feeling disappointed with your boss because you think you deserve some consideration with all the contributions and profit that you made for the company.
Yes, the other employees will see how this case is handled. They may also be observing this case from a viewpoint that is, how valuable management considers their staff. Or are they just horses working the fields, slogging for the farmer and when too old to work, they are sent to the slaughterhouse. A thought, what if the other employees empathized with her situation? Management could turn out to be the Devil's Advocate.
Question again. Have you tried discussing with this employee, that the policy and rules are such, and the unfairness towards other employees if hers was approved? The implication of the situation that she has just placed the management? Discussing in confidence on the real reason for the leave, so that an alternative may be reached?
Just a little sharing and hope it gives you some ideas.
Regards
From Malaysia, Johor Bahru
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear All,
I believe that whether an employee is a performer or not, there should not be any dilution in your leave policy in this case. You can reward a performing employee in many ways. However, the dilution of policies can certainly disrupt the working scenario.
Arun Natarajan
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I believe that whether an employee is a performer or not, there should not be any dilution in your leave policy in this case. You can reward a performing employee in many ways. However, the dilution of policies can certainly disrupt the working scenario.
Arun Natarajan
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
There are exceptional cases where one could bend the rules. However, in this scenario, the employee has been given a lot of leeway in the past, as I gather from your second email. Also, therein you had mentioned the employee is a good worker and does put in extra hours, including weekends, to do the work.
Does the office have a culture of working late and coming to the office over the weekends? There seems to be no balance between personal life and work life when such situations are allowed where employees go beyond their expected work routines. There will be a point in time when the employee demands the same measure from the company when they need it.
All employees are generally perceived as good. Isn't that the reason why we hired them? Now we find good employees acting in a manner we can't accept.
My suggestion is that let this employee go on leave, but with your approval, and after she returns, make the ground rules clear.
Avoid encouraging people to work late and on off days.
Vijay Michael
From India, Madras
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Does the office have a culture of working late and coming to the office over the weekends? There seems to be no balance between personal life and work life when such situations are allowed where employees go beyond their expected work routines. There will be a point in time when the employee demands the same measure from the company when they need it.
All employees are generally perceived as good. Isn't that the reason why we hired them? Now we find good employees acting in a manner we can't accept.
My suggestion is that let this employee go on leave, but with your approval, and after she returns, make the ground rules clear.
Avoid encouraging people to work late and on off days.
Vijay Michael
From India, Madras
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
There is an old saying in many cultures that translates to something like: "Don't let the rotten apple spoil the barrel."
This employee knows the policy and has had leniency shown in the past. She is wanting leave to meet family but refuses to have the family come to her. You have good operational reason to decline her request.
If you let her have leave, you send a message to all: (1) the policy on leave can be ignored and insubordination and disrespect are tolerated; (2) if you are a high performer, you can do anything you want; (3) lower-performing workers can disrespect managers and see what else they can get away with.
She may be a high performer now, but will she be once she knows that you know that she doesn't respect you or the company, and that you and the company will do nothing about it?
My suggestion is to take a tough line for the sake of the future of the team:
1. Refuse the leave, and explain why.
2. Warn her that her attitude over this is not what is expected from a professional person, and that if she goes anyway she will be disobeying a reasonable order and be liable to dismissal (or whatever the sanction is in your organization).
3. Put this in writing to her and also on her file.
4. Wait to see what happens.
I have seen so many teams self-destruct because management would not stand firm over policy and rules when there was no grounds for compassion.
Good luck,
Martin
From United Kingdom,
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
This employee knows the policy and has had leniency shown in the past. She is wanting leave to meet family but refuses to have the family come to her. You have good operational reason to decline her request.
If you let her have leave, you send a message to all: (1) the policy on leave can be ignored and insubordination and disrespect are tolerated; (2) if you are a high performer, you can do anything you want; (3) lower-performing workers can disrespect managers and see what else they can get away with.
She may be a high performer now, but will she be once she knows that you know that she doesn't respect you or the company, and that you and the company will do nothing about it?
My suggestion is to take a tough line for the sake of the future of the team:
1. Refuse the leave, and explain why.
2. Warn her that her attitude over this is not what is expected from a professional person, and that if she goes anyway she will be disobeying a reasonable order and be liable to dismissal (or whatever the sanction is in your organization).
3. Put this in writing to her and also on her file.
4. Wait to see what happens.
I have seen so many teams self-destruct because management would not stand firm over policy and rules when there was no grounds for compassion.
Good luck,
Martin
From United Kingdom,
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Dear Martin,
Life is very unpredictable, and people are unpredictable. We spend around 12-15 hours a day in our organization. That is definitely much more time spent even with our family. Should we then also consider ourselves part of the organization family? In a family, we learn to grow, make mistakes, learn from each other, and at times, maybe even get the extra cookie from our father when mom said no. Isn't it the same as working in an organization?
Having rules and regulations is good, but I am of the opinion that it has to be balanced with compassion and understanding. That's why I ask, what was her background like? In fact, just to re-quote:
"Yes, the other employees will see how this case is handled. They may also be observing this case from a viewpoint that is, how valuable management considers their staff. Or are they just horses working the fields, slogging for the farmer and when too old to work, they are sent to the slaughterhouse."
A little sharing of opinions. 😉
---
From Malaysia, Johor Bahru
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Life is very unpredictable, and people are unpredictable. We spend around 12-15 hours a day in our organization. That is definitely much more time spent even with our family. Should we then also consider ourselves part of the organization family? In a family, we learn to grow, make mistakes, learn from each other, and at times, maybe even get the extra cookie from our father when mom said no. Isn't it the same as working in an organization?
Having rules and regulations is good, but I am of the opinion that it has to be balanced with compassion and understanding. That's why I ask, what was her background like? In fact, just to re-quote:
"Yes, the other employees will see how this case is handled. They may also be observing this case from a viewpoint that is, how valuable management considers their staff. Or are they just horses working the fields, slogging for the farmer and when too old to work, they are sent to the slaughterhouse."
A little sharing of opinions. 😉
---
From Malaysia, Johor Bahru
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
I agree with Noel's point. Have we analyzed the person's background, reasons for such behavior, where is she now in her life etc? Without knowing these, is it right to pass a judgment.
No doubt, discipline is required to be maintained in any organization. But remember those rules and regulations are made for the people, by the people, and all are humans. Yes, it has to be looked at with compassion and understanding.
The other point which Noel has mentioned in his earlier post is also to be noticed. Are the employees just horses who have to be sent to the slaughterhouse when utility is over? Or are they to be treated just like tissue paper? These are all 'ethical' questions that need to be pondered upon.
Thanks Bala
From India, Madras
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
No doubt, discipline is required to be maintained in any organization. But remember those rules and regulations are made for the people, by the people, and all are humans. Yes, it has to be looked at with compassion and understanding.
The other point which Noel has mentioned in his earlier post is also to be noticed. Are the employees just horses who have to be sent to the slaughterhouse when utility is over? Or are they to be treated just like tissue paper? These are all 'ethical' questions that need to be pondered upon.
Thanks Bala
From India, Madras
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Noel,
Thank you for your response, and I totally agree with you.
With one proviso: at some point, there comes a time to decide if the employee comes first or the organization comes first. I struggle to think of an example of a commercial organization where, in the circumstances outlined to us in the original posting, when pushed to act, eventually there comes a time where 'enough is enough' and the disciplinary process is started towards terminating the employee (maybe we don't have the whole picture - almost certainly to be true - these things are never as simple as first thought!).
What this discussion has unearthed is issues of core values - those things that an organization holds inviolate.
Imagine the behaviors that may well arise over time with the rest of the employees once they know that management will always give in to what the employees want to do. I recently worked with an organization that was in this very position. Absence of employees was very high, damage to vital equipment was very high, and service to the customer and relations with the suppliers were very poor. Result: major customers left, taking almost 15% of the total business with them. That wiped out the profit margins overnight. The company then focused on trying to win back customers and reducing the cost of damage. Employees did not get behind management in this attempt because they had no respect for management or what they were saying. These employees are paid twice the national average, so pay was not an issue. This company is still struggling, and may in the near future have to reduce the size of its workforce to get back to a reasonable financial state. There are nearly 800 people employed by the company. Imagine the impact on the local community if many of these lost their jobs?
Some may say that other factors are the cause behind this. I was engaged in doing a root cause analysis - to find out exactly what factors were behind this. One of the fundamental factors, and by far the biggest, was this lack of respect and trust for management.
What is encouraging is that having identified these root causes, much of the senior management has been changed, including the CEO. Management is now behaving in a tougher, more open, and consistent manner, and there is hope now that in 6-9 months time it will have turned around and be improving service and profits.
So, beware the rotten apple and where it might lead you in a year or two - terminate one person now, or 100 people next year...
It's a tough world out there, and organizations need to decide if they are a charity or a commercial organization and act accordingly and consistently.
I would add finally that we must act with honor and treat people with dignity - I would strongly support giving the employee every opportunity to help management understand better the circumstances surrounding her request and why she can't agree to the reasonable request to meet with family locally. Ultimately if her reasons do not warrant giving her leave at such short notice, then don't give it, and my original advice stands. If there are grounds for compassion, then give the leave but also make clear the policy on leave, etc. I would still make a brief note on her file that she had violated the policy, albeit for a good reason, just in case she attempts something similar in the future, but for lesser reasons, and you do need to go down the disciplinary route.
I can just imagine now some readers thinking "ouch - I don't think I'd like Martin as my manager" - and I think my response would be "if you are thinking of misleading me in such ways and not being truthful with me, I don't want you in my team, or doing business with it" - it cuts both ways!
Thanks for the debate.
Kind regards,
Martin
From United Kingdom,
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Thank you for your response, and I totally agree with you.
With one proviso: at some point, there comes a time to decide if the employee comes first or the organization comes first. I struggle to think of an example of a commercial organization where, in the circumstances outlined to us in the original posting, when pushed to act, eventually there comes a time where 'enough is enough' and the disciplinary process is started towards terminating the employee (maybe we don't have the whole picture - almost certainly to be true - these things are never as simple as first thought!).
What this discussion has unearthed is issues of core values - those things that an organization holds inviolate.
Imagine the behaviors that may well arise over time with the rest of the employees once they know that management will always give in to what the employees want to do. I recently worked with an organization that was in this very position. Absence of employees was very high, damage to vital equipment was very high, and service to the customer and relations with the suppliers were very poor. Result: major customers left, taking almost 15% of the total business with them. That wiped out the profit margins overnight. The company then focused on trying to win back customers and reducing the cost of damage. Employees did not get behind management in this attempt because they had no respect for management or what they were saying. These employees are paid twice the national average, so pay was not an issue. This company is still struggling, and may in the near future have to reduce the size of its workforce to get back to a reasonable financial state. There are nearly 800 people employed by the company. Imagine the impact on the local community if many of these lost their jobs?
Some may say that other factors are the cause behind this. I was engaged in doing a root cause analysis - to find out exactly what factors were behind this. One of the fundamental factors, and by far the biggest, was this lack of respect and trust for management.
What is encouraging is that having identified these root causes, much of the senior management has been changed, including the CEO. Management is now behaving in a tougher, more open, and consistent manner, and there is hope now that in 6-9 months time it will have turned around and be improving service and profits.
So, beware the rotten apple and where it might lead you in a year or two - terminate one person now, or 100 people next year...
It's a tough world out there, and organizations need to decide if they are a charity or a commercial organization and act accordingly and consistently.
I would add finally that we must act with honor and treat people with dignity - I would strongly support giving the employee every opportunity to help management understand better the circumstances surrounding her request and why she can't agree to the reasonable request to meet with family locally. Ultimately if her reasons do not warrant giving her leave at such short notice, then don't give it, and my original advice stands. If there are grounds for compassion, then give the leave but also make clear the policy on leave, etc. I would still make a brief note on her file that she had violated the policy, albeit for a good reason, just in case she attempts something similar in the future, but for lesser reasons, and you do need to go down the disciplinary route.
I can just imagine now some readers thinking "ouch - I don't think I'd like Martin as my manager" - and I think my response would be "if you are thinking of misleading me in such ways and not being truthful with me, I don't want you in my team, or doing business with it" - it cuts both ways!
Thanks for the debate.
Kind regards,
Martin
From United Kingdom,
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
Hi,
This is a really good case study. I believe we have considered the following points:
1. Cause(s) of leave.
2. Previous attitude of employee.
3. Attitude of sanctioning authority.
4. Working of employee. Strength of employee.
5. Management perception.
6. Leave rules.
7. Impact on others.
In my opinion, leave is always a privilege provided by the employer and should not be considered as a right by an employee. Leave rules have already been deviated for this employee, keeping in view her performance. Management is fully aware of its strengths and weaknesses. Furthermore, we also want to retain the employee.
I further believe that stopping pay, not sanctioning further leave, sanctioning as leave without pay, or reminding leave rules to the individual will have an impact on the employee. The determination that "I am proceeding" indicates that she has already weighed the strengths of the organization, and now this attitude is required to be redirected towards maintaining office decorum.
In my opinion, when we want to see the impact of our deeds on others, the best way is to involve everyone on whom we want to see the impact. Please call everybody across the table and do a brainstorming exercise. Discuss each and every aspect that you want to put forward. Let us have others say on that. Let them come up with their ideas and discuss all pros and cons and finally agree on a single understanding.
In the end, you can bring the whole discussion in writing and get this signed by everyone. Circulate copies among the members. I am sure you will achieve what you want and you can see the impact of the same on others.
Regards,
Anil Anand
From India, New Delhi
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)
This is a really good case study. I believe we have considered the following points:
1. Cause(s) of leave.
2. Previous attitude of employee.
3. Attitude of sanctioning authority.
4. Working of employee. Strength of employee.
5. Management perception.
6. Leave rules.
7. Impact on others.
In my opinion, leave is always a privilege provided by the employer and should not be considered as a right by an employee. Leave rules have already been deviated for this employee, keeping in view her performance. Management is fully aware of its strengths and weaknesses. Furthermore, we also want to retain the employee.
I further believe that stopping pay, not sanctioning further leave, sanctioning as leave without pay, or reminding leave rules to the individual will have an impact on the employee. The determination that "I am proceeding" indicates that she has already weighed the strengths of the organization, and now this attitude is required to be redirected towards maintaining office decorum.
In my opinion, when we want to see the impact of our deeds on others, the best way is to involve everyone on whom we want to see the impact. Please call everybody across the table and do a brainstorming exercise. Discuss each and every aspect that you want to put forward. Let us have others say on that. Let them come up with their ideas and discuss all pros and cons and finally agree on a single understanding.
In the end, you can bring the whole discussion in writing and get this signed by everyone. Circulate copies among the members. I am sure you will achieve what you want and you can see the impact of the same on others.
Regards,
Anil Anand
From India, New Delhi
Acknowledge(0)Amend(0)Looking for something specific? - Join & Be Part Of Our Community and get connected with the right people who can help. Our AI-powered platform provides real-time fact-checking, peer-reviewed insights, and a vast historical knowledge base to support your search.
Employee Relations, Discipline and Policy.doc
Employee Relations.ppt