Dear Experts,
At the outset, sorry for sending a very elaborate query for your valuable guidance.
I have joined a new Company (Pvt. Ltd. Co.). The Company was started by 9 Founder Directors. Currently, there are only 4 Founder Directors who visit the Factory regularly. Till 2008, there was a Consultant who used to guide the Directors and Senior Management Staff. Subsequently, a Core Team was formed by the Founder Directors.
One of the Founder Directors wants the Board/HR to initiate action against Mr. VP, a Vice President of the Company on the following issues:
a. Falsification of Attendance Register (Signing the Attendance Register without attending the office) in 2006-07: Mr. VP had not attended the office on a particular day and had subsequently signed the Attendance Register as Present. There is no memo/notice issued to this effect in the personal file of Mr. VP.
b. Share trading activities during office hours using the office Internet facility in 2010-11: The Founder Director informs that Mr. VP has been using the internet facility in the office to do share trading business during office hours for which he has proof from the System Admin.
c. Arrogance during discussion: The Founder Director informs that during one of the discussions in 2015, Mr. VP replied arrogantly.
d. Working in an inebriated condition with the workers in 2015-16: Employees have been working in a factory continuously for more than 16 hours per day for a week to complete a task as per the commitment given to the customer. On the last day, the customer was supposed to leave the factory around 8.00 p.m. Around 13 employees including Mr. VP had planned for happy hours as they had been working continuously for 4 days and nights. They arranged to have alcoholic drinks at night and proceed home. Unfortunately for them, the customer went out for Dinner and planned to come back. Hence the employees had drinks around 10.00 p.m. (night) and came to the factory only after the customer returned after dinner.
e. No cordial relationship down the line leading to a suicidal attempt by one of the employees: It is reported that one of the employees who was working under the said Mr. VP attempted to commit suicide by writing a note against a few Managers. The Founder Director informs that he met the employee in the hospital and saved the Managers from being harassed by the Police. The said employee was on leave for a week. There are no records with HR on this issue.
f. No motivational attitude towards the employees under him: The Founder Directors inform that 60% of the employees reporting to Mr. VP are not happy with him.
The Founder Director who wants action to be initiated feels that the above action by a Vice President is unethical and unacceptable by any standards. He also feels that his behavior is counterproductive and gives an impression of no checks and balances are in force in our company.
The Company strength is 200+, and 85 employees report to Mr. VP. The career growth of Mr. VP in our Organization is as follows:
08th December 2003: Joined the Company as Manager. June 2008: Promoted as Senior Manager. May 2010: Promoted as Deputy General Manager. June 2011: Promoted as Vice President
Expert view/guidance is sought on the above issue.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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1At the outset, sorry for sending a very elaborate query for your valuable guidance.
I have joined a new Company (Pvt. Ltd. Co.). The Company was started by 9 Founder Directors. Currently, there are only 4 Founder Directors who visit the Factory regularly. Till 2008, there was a Consultant who used to guide the Directors and Senior Management Staff. Subsequently, a Core Team was formed by the Founder Directors.
One of the Founder Directors wants the Board/HR to initiate action against Mr. VP, a Vice President of the Company on the following issues:
a. Falsification of Attendance Register (Signing the Attendance Register without attending the office) in 2006-07: Mr. VP had not attended the office on a particular day and had subsequently signed the Attendance Register as Present. There is no memo/notice issued to this effect in the personal file of Mr. VP.
b. Share trading activities during office hours using the office Internet facility in 2010-11: The Founder Director informs that Mr. VP has been using the internet facility in the office to do share trading business during office hours for which he has proof from the System Admin.
c. Arrogance during discussion: The Founder Director informs that during one of the discussions in 2015, Mr. VP replied arrogantly.
d. Working in an inebriated condition with the workers in 2015-16: Employees have been working in a factory continuously for more than 16 hours per day for a week to complete a task as per the commitment given to the customer. On the last day, the customer was supposed to leave the factory around 8.00 p.m. Around 13 employees including Mr. VP had planned for happy hours as they had been working continuously for 4 days and nights. They arranged to have alcoholic drinks at night and proceed home. Unfortunately for them, the customer went out for Dinner and planned to come back. Hence the employees had drinks around 10.00 p.m. (night) and came to the factory only after the customer returned after dinner.
e. No cordial relationship down the line leading to a suicidal attempt by one of the employees: It is reported that one of the employees who was working under the said Mr. VP attempted to commit suicide by writing a note against a few Managers. The Founder Director informs that he met the employee in the hospital and saved the Managers from being harassed by the Police. The said employee was on leave for a week. There are no records with HR on this issue.
f. No motivational attitude towards the employees under him: The Founder Directors inform that 60% of the employees reporting to Mr. VP are not happy with him.
The Founder Director who wants action to be initiated feels that the above action by a Vice President is unethical and unacceptable by any standards. He also feels that his behavior is counterproductive and gives an impression of no checks and balances are in force in our company.
The Company strength is 200+, and 85 employees report to Mr. VP. The career growth of Mr. VP in our Organization is as follows:
08th December 2003: Joined the Company as Manager. June 2008: Promoted as Senior Manager. May 2010: Promoted as Deputy General Manager. June 2011: Promoted as Vice President
Expert view/guidance is sought on the above issue.
Regards
From India, Bangalore
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Dear Harish,
I am a little surprised at your post. Notwithstanding misconducts, why was action not initiated immediately? What was the hold up? Nevertheless, paragraph-wise replies to your post are as below:
Point (a) and (b): These are too old. Why was action not taken at that time itself? Notwithstanding this misconduct, why was the said person promoted to a senior level in 2010?
Point (c): Why was a show cause notice not issued immediately?
Point (d): If a few workers were found working in inebriated conditions, why was a domestic enquiry not conducted at that time? By the way, which law permits workers to work for 16 hours? Who is responsible for the transgression of the Factories Act?
Points (e) and (f): This is the management style of the individual and it cannot be construed as "misconduct" as such.
Final Comments: Overall, I find the failure of the management style of the Founder-Director more concerning than the behavior of the VP. All along, the VP was in the good books of the Founder-Director, and now the VP is in the bad books. For the progress of the company, these whims and fancies do not work.
The VP was unfit to be promoted to this level, yet he has been given promotions. At this stage, the Founder-Director can very well call him into his office and tell the VP to put in his papers. To lay the groundwork for the mistakes that have happened in the last week or fortnight, issue him a show cause notice. Warn him upon receipt of his reply. Do this 1-2 times and tell him to put in his papers.
Lastly, what is your designation? Does the Founder-Director want to shoot from your shoulders? If yes, then refrain him from doing so. You have joined the company just recently. Let the Founder-Director clean the muck that has been gathering all along. If you are just an HR Manager, then play it safe and tell the Founder-Director that you cannot initiate any action against the VP. However, you may give advice to him as and when necessary.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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I am a little surprised at your post. Notwithstanding misconducts, why was action not initiated immediately? What was the hold up? Nevertheless, paragraph-wise replies to your post are as below:
Point (a) and (b): These are too old. Why was action not taken at that time itself? Notwithstanding this misconduct, why was the said person promoted to a senior level in 2010?
Point (c): Why was a show cause notice not issued immediately?
Point (d): If a few workers were found working in inebriated conditions, why was a domestic enquiry not conducted at that time? By the way, which law permits workers to work for 16 hours? Who is responsible for the transgression of the Factories Act?
Points (e) and (f): This is the management style of the individual and it cannot be construed as "misconduct" as such.
Final Comments: Overall, I find the failure of the management style of the Founder-Director more concerning than the behavior of the VP. All along, the VP was in the good books of the Founder-Director, and now the VP is in the bad books. For the progress of the company, these whims and fancies do not work.
The VP was unfit to be promoted to this level, yet he has been given promotions. At this stage, the Founder-Director can very well call him into his office and tell the VP to put in his papers. To lay the groundwork for the mistakes that have happened in the last week or fortnight, issue him a show cause notice. Warn him upon receipt of his reply. Do this 1-2 times and tell him to put in his papers.
Lastly, what is your designation? Does the Founder-Director want to shoot from your shoulders? If yes, then refrain him from doing so. You have joined the company just recently. Let the Founder-Director clean the muck that has been gathering all along. If you are just an HR Manager, then play it safe and tell the Founder-Director that you cannot initiate any action against the VP. However, you may give advice to him as and when necessary.
Thanks,
Dinesh Divekar
From India, Bangalore
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If you go through the details, the company has rewarded him with promotions continuously in the years 2008, 2010, and 2011, and now wants to initiate action which is not at all acceptable. You also need to check the performance rating of the employee concerned for the last four years. If it is good, then you cannot even mention the misconducts if they occurred in previous years. Hence, you have the option to initiate action based on the recent happenings.
As rightly mentioned by Mr. Divakar, your director wants to make you a scapegoat. I opine that the appointment order might have been signed by the directors; hence, the disciplinary process should also be from their desk. In case your company does not have any legal consultant, then it is better to obtain an opinion from a legal consultant and base your actions on his advice.
From India, Hyderabad
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As rightly mentioned by Mr. Divakar, your director wants to make you a scapegoat. I opine that the appointment order might have been signed by the directors; hence, the disciplinary process should also be from their desk. In case your company does not have any legal consultant, then it is better to obtain an opinion from a legal consultant and base your actions on his advice.
From India, Hyderabad
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Answers:
Falsification of Attendance Register (Signing the Attendance Register without attending the office) in 2006-07: Mr. VP had not attended the office on a particular day and had subsequently signed the Attendance Register as Present. There is no memo/notice issued to this effect in the personal file of Mr. VP.
Too late in the day. No action is possible.
Share trading activities during office hours using the office Internet facility in 2010-11: The Founder Director informs that Mr. VP has been using the internet facility in the office to do share trading business during office hours for which he has proof from the System Admin.
Again too late for action.
Are there any clear rules in the company regarding the private use of the internet?
Arrogance during discussion: The Founder Director informs that during one of the discussions in 2015, Mr. VP replied arrogantly.
Very subjective and, again, too much time has passed by.
A similar query was posted a few months ago; use the search button to locate this post and several replies given by members.
As learned member Dinesh said, it is purely a style of management and should have been pointed out at that stage and not used subsequently to settle scores.
The VP has been given promotions over the years, and now old issues are being raked up.
Being a VP, you as HR can only facilitate action but are not competent to act. Board of Directors can act if they feel like. However, the whole issue is hazy, and legal action can be easily challenged by the VP in a court of law.
Give the right advice and steer clear of getting involved personally.
From India, Pune
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Falsification of Attendance Register (Signing the Attendance Register without attending the office) in 2006-07: Mr. VP had not attended the office on a particular day and had subsequently signed the Attendance Register as Present. There is no memo/notice issued to this effect in the personal file of Mr. VP.
Too late in the day. No action is possible.
Share trading activities during office hours using the office Internet facility in 2010-11: The Founder Director informs that Mr. VP has been using the internet facility in the office to do share trading business during office hours for which he has proof from the System Admin.
Again too late for action.
Are there any clear rules in the company regarding the private use of the internet?
Arrogance during discussion: The Founder Director informs that during one of the discussions in 2015, Mr. VP replied arrogantly.
Very subjective and, again, too much time has passed by.
A similar query was posted a few months ago; use the search button to locate this post and several replies given by members.
As learned member Dinesh said, it is purely a style of management and should have been pointed out at that stage and not used subsequently to settle scores.
The VP has been given promotions over the years, and now old issues are being raked up.
Being a VP, you as HR can only facilitate action but are not competent to act. Board of Directors can act if they feel like. However, the whole issue is hazy, and legal action can be easily challenged by the VP in a court of law.
Give the right advice and steer clear of getting involved personally.
From India, Pune
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Dear Mr. Harish,
It is clear that at least one of the actions of the VP can be proved, i.e., trading during hours - in case net usage record is available.
What kind of action does the management want? Dismissal? If yes, then check the terms of engagement. In case a clause exists with regards to misuse of property/IT equipment, then the person can be dismissed on these grounds.
If you give him a show cause notice, and he knows that he may be dismissed, then most likely, he will offer to resign instead of facing dismissal. Other points may be difficult to prove without a long-drawn domestic inquiry.
Regards,
Col. Suresh Rathi
From India, Delhi
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It is clear that at least one of the actions of the VP can be proved, i.e., trading during hours - in case net usage record is available.
What kind of action does the management want? Dismissal? If yes, then check the terms of engagement. In case a clause exists with regards to misuse of property/IT equipment, then the person can be dismissed on these grounds.
If you give him a show cause notice, and he knows that he may be dismissed, then most likely, he will offer to resign instead of facing dismissal. Other points may be difficult to prove without a long-drawn domestic inquiry.
Regards,
Col. Suresh Rathi
From India, Delhi
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In view of the details, it seems to be purely an academic exercise, not a real-life situation. Furthermore, the querist has chosen to remain anonymous and has failed to mention in what capacity they are assigned the job of taking action against the so-called VP.
Mr. Divekar has rightfully raised questions about the management's inaction. The question that arises is, if the situation was so favorable, how and why did he receive frequent promotions to reach the level of a VP?
From India, Delhi
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Mr. Divekar has rightfully raised questions about the management's inaction. The question that arises is, if the situation was so favorable, how and why did he receive frequent promotions to reach the level of a VP?
From India, Delhi
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I agree with the opinions of Mr. Dinesh and Mr. Dhingra, Sir, regarding the questions raised in the matter.
Dear Seniors,
Such incidents are happening in HR management, and I find it something new.
Adoni Suguresh
From India, Bidar
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Dear Seniors,
Such incidents are happening in HR management, and I find it something new.
Adoni Suguresh
From India, Bidar
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Dear Harish,
In this case, I completely agree with Mr. Dinesh Divekar.
Once the attendance is marked, why is the attendance not closed on a daily basis? The HR has given room to all the staff to falsify the attendance at any time during the month before the commencement of the Salary process.
As you are planning to corner the Senior Management person, you will be in a trap, and finally, the HR will be blamed, and the senior person available in HR will get a black mark.
There are many software available in the market. With that usage, you could have blocked the websites irrelevant to your organization. Why was it not done? Again, the HR/System Admin Team will be blamed for not blocking the irrelevant websites.
If a person is bold enough to behave arrogantly even with the co-founder member, then think about the hold he has in his office. If you touch him, you will be in trouble, and your survival will be a big question mark.
How do you register their attendance? Do you maintain in-time and out-time for the employees? If so, on the first day of 16 hours itself, why did you not trigger any mail to the VP to seek some explanation so that you can obtain the approval from the Factories Inspector & permission from management.
Once the VP can manage even from your office about the attempt to suicide case of an employee, then you can think about his power in the organization. Be cautious and careful while handling such personalities, which may endanger your career growth.
He may not have the motivating power, but he gives productivity, that's why 60% of employees are deployed under him. Now you can imagine his strength and power in his organization.
As a matter of fact, the Co-founder Director does not want to take any action from his side, even though he got frustrated. If he takes any action against him, then his organization will have great loss. But he wants to take control over him. That's the reason he wants to use you as a weapon. You can advise only to the directors to talk to the VP and sort out the issue amicably and act as advised by Mr. Dinesh Divekar.
From my side, I can add one more sound advice: In the board of directors meeting, they can create a new department and post the VP and place only 2 or 4 employees under him as policy creation or restructuring the organization towards its part of development. For his post, they can appoint someone suitable for the vacancy.
From India, Kumbakonam
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In this case, I completely agree with Mr. Dinesh Divekar.
Once the attendance is marked, why is the attendance not closed on a daily basis? The HR has given room to all the staff to falsify the attendance at any time during the month before the commencement of the Salary process.
As you are planning to corner the Senior Management person, you will be in a trap, and finally, the HR will be blamed, and the senior person available in HR will get a black mark.
There are many software available in the market. With that usage, you could have blocked the websites irrelevant to your organization. Why was it not done? Again, the HR/System Admin Team will be blamed for not blocking the irrelevant websites.
If a person is bold enough to behave arrogantly even with the co-founder member, then think about the hold he has in his office. If you touch him, you will be in trouble, and your survival will be a big question mark.
How do you register their attendance? Do you maintain in-time and out-time for the employees? If so, on the first day of 16 hours itself, why did you not trigger any mail to the VP to seek some explanation so that you can obtain the approval from the Factories Inspector & permission from management.
Once the VP can manage even from your office about the attempt to suicide case of an employee, then you can think about his power in the organization. Be cautious and careful while handling such personalities, which may endanger your career growth.
He may not have the motivating power, but he gives productivity, that's why 60% of employees are deployed under him. Now you can imagine his strength and power in his organization.
As a matter of fact, the Co-founder Director does not want to take any action from his side, even though he got frustrated. If he takes any action against him, then his organization will have great loss. But he wants to take control over him. That's the reason he wants to use you as a weapon. You can advise only to the directors to talk to the VP and sort out the issue amicably and act as advised by Mr. Dinesh Divekar.
From my side, I can add one more sound advice: In the board of directors meeting, they can create a new department and post the VP and place only 2 or 4 employees under him as policy creation or restructuring the organization towards its part of development. For his post, they can appoint someone suitable for the vacancy.
From India, Kumbakonam
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