Dear Sir,
I am working as a non-managerial staff in a well-known organization in Kerala. There is a chance for promotion this year, and I will be promoted to the managerial category. I am also holding a position as a secretary in an internal trade union. Currently, I am receiving all the legal protection as a workman. Will I receive the same protection after the promotion? If not, what can I do? Please reply.
Thank you.
From India, Poona
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I am working as a non-managerial staff in a well-known organization in Kerala. There is a chance for promotion this year, and I will be promoted to the managerial category. I am also holding a position as a secretary in an internal trade union. Currently, I am receiving all the legal protection as a workman. Will I receive the same protection after the promotion? If not, what can I do? Please reply.
Thank you.
From India, Poona
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No protection for managerial staff please. Because managers are supposed to be capable of protecting themselves. Status of protected workman is available to a workman only as per ID Act section 33.
From India, Bangalore
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24From India, Bangalore
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Okay, thanks for your advice. But if my union is powerful enough to protect any of its office bearers from management action without the help of any authorities, can we do the same in that way? I mean strike or something?
From India, Poona
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From India, Poona
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Dear Sunny,
Congratulations on your promotion! However, I regret to inform you that you will no longer enjoy all the privileges of a union member and will lose your position as the union secretary due to your new role as a manager in the company. You have transitioned from the labor side to the management side.
Regards.
From Philippines, Davao City
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Congratulations on your promotion! However, I regret to inform you that you will no longer enjoy all the privileges of a union member and will lose your position as the union secretary due to your new role as a manager in the company. You have transitioned from the labor side to the management side.
Regards.
From Philippines, Davao City
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Thanks, Bro,
Thank you for your valuable advice. This is not about the privileges of holding the post of union secretary. I want to know the pros and cons of this promotion. That's all. Anyway, there are just two choices in front of me:
1) Hand over the union responsibility to the next person.
2) Make a bold decision that I don't need a promotion.
For my personal gain, the first option is good. To continue with union responsibilities, I need to sacrifice my personal gain. Am I correct?
From India, Poona
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Thank you for your valuable advice. This is not about the privileges of holding the post of union secretary. I want to know the pros and cons of this promotion. That's all. Anyway, there are just two choices in front of me:
1) Hand over the union responsibility to the next person.
2) Make a bold decision that I don't need a promotion.
For my personal gain, the first option is good. To continue with union responsibilities, I need to sacrifice my personal gain. Am I correct?
From India, Poona
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Subject: Re: Union Office Bearer - Legal Protection During Promotion to Managerial Category
By selecting option No. 1, you are refusing the opportunity of promotion. Promotion means a better pay package, better status, and further chances for progress which you are refusing. You want to stay with Union protection, which is wrong. Suppose in the year 2014, your company, for certain reasons, decided to retrench (I assume that your company does not require permission for retrenchment) 25% of workers, and you are one of them. Being the Union secretary, you do not have special individual protection that will save you from retrenchment. I think you have developed the fear of employment and hence are opting for the above option. Any person who has vision will definitely accept the challenge of promotion. Everyone has to face the risk factor in his life. Don't you want this?
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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By selecting option No. 1, you are refusing the opportunity of promotion. Promotion means a better pay package, better status, and further chances for progress which you are refusing. You want to stay with Union protection, which is wrong. Suppose in the year 2014, your company, for certain reasons, decided to retrench (I assume that your company does not require permission for retrenchment) 25% of workers, and you are one of them. Being the Union secretary, you do not have special individual protection that will save you from retrenchment. I think you have developed the fear of employment and hence are opting for the above option. Any person who has vision will definitely accept the challenge of promotion. Everyone has to face the risk factor in his life. Don't you want this?
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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Subject: Re: Union Office Bearer - Legal Protection During Promotion to Managerial Category
Dear S. Pallan,
Please treat my earlier post by selecting option No. 2, which is to "Take a bold decision that I do not need a promotion."
Regards,
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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Dear S. Pallan,
Please treat my earlier post by selecting option No. 2, which is to "Take a bold decision that I do not need a promotion."
Regards,
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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Hello,
Basically, the "workman" in labor law is defined protection against the loss of a job.
However, the cost that one pays for this "job security" is in the form of limited personal and professional growth.
As an individual, you can only grow to the extent your talents and training will take you and the opportunities that you encounter.
Hoping to benefit from promotional opportunities while still enjoying the protection of the law or the Union is akin to wishing for the "best of both worlds," which is unrealistic in the real world of work.
Ultimately, it is a decision that one must make for oneself. Others can only offer advice based on their perspectives.
It is unrealistic to expect unlimited growth opportunities to come your way while simultaneously insulating yourself from job loss, especially through union connections.
Such a mindset is dishonest and unsustainable.
While technically possible, remaining a union member after entering managerial ranks (especially in socialist countries like India) is feasible, but it may not be favorable with the management.
If your status changes from a "workman" under labor law, you may lose legal protection and have to rely solely on the coercive power of the Union, which may not be reliable in the face of corporate opposition.
Therefore, it is essential to consider whether you are willing to take the risk of pursuing personal growth independently without the perceived safety net of union membership.
Reevaluate your position and make a decision based on integrity and honesty rather than dependency.
If you disagree with this advice, feel free to disregard it.
Good luck.
Regards,
Samvedan
December 8, 2013
[QUOTE=Sunny Pallan;2110486]Dear Sir,
I am currently working as a non-managerial staff in a well-known organization in Kerala. There is a possibility of promotion this year, which would elevate me to a managerial position. Additionally, I hold the position of secretary in an internal trade union. Currently, I benefit from all the legal protections afforded to a worker.
Will I retain the same level of protection after the promotion? If not, what steps can I take? Please advise.
Correct Spelling and Grammar: Identify and fix any spelling or grammatical mistakes in the text.
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Ensure there is a single line break between paragraphs. If there are multiple line breaks, reduce them to one.
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From India, Pune
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Basically, the "workman" in labor law is defined protection against the loss of a job.
However, the cost that one pays for this "job security" is in the form of limited personal and professional growth.
As an individual, you can only grow to the extent your talents and training will take you and the opportunities that you encounter.
Hoping to benefit from promotional opportunities while still enjoying the protection of the law or the Union is akin to wishing for the "best of both worlds," which is unrealistic in the real world of work.
Ultimately, it is a decision that one must make for oneself. Others can only offer advice based on their perspectives.
It is unrealistic to expect unlimited growth opportunities to come your way while simultaneously insulating yourself from job loss, especially through union connections.
Such a mindset is dishonest and unsustainable.
While technically possible, remaining a union member after entering managerial ranks (especially in socialist countries like India) is feasible, but it may not be favorable with the management.
If your status changes from a "workman" under labor law, you may lose legal protection and have to rely solely on the coercive power of the Union, which may not be reliable in the face of corporate opposition.
Therefore, it is essential to consider whether you are willing to take the risk of pursuing personal growth independently without the perceived safety net of union membership.
Reevaluate your position and make a decision based on integrity and honesty rather than dependency.
If you disagree with this advice, feel free to disregard it.
Good luck.
Regards,
Samvedan
December 8, 2013
[QUOTE=Sunny Pallan;2110486]Dear Sir,
I am currently working as a non-managerial staff in a well-known organization in Kerala. There is a possibility of promotion this year, which would elevate me to a managerial position. Additionally, I hold the position of secretary in an internal trade union. Currently, I benefit from all the legal protections afforded to a worker.
Will I retain the same level of protection after the promotion? If not, what steps can I take? Please advise.
Correct Spelling and Grammar: Identify and fix any spelling or grammatical mistakes in the text.
Handle Line Breaks:
Ensure there is a single line break between paragraphs. If there are multiple line breaks, reduce them to one.
If the user starts with “Hi, ” followed by a line feed, remove that line feed to ensure the first line does not appear blank.
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From India, Pune
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Please refer to this post, made earlier on the subject, by one of our senior member and HR expert, Sh. T.K. Madhu :
Madhu.T.K
attribution https://www.citehr.com/398360-trade-...#ixzz2mu0MuDqx
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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" Normally a trade union is said to be a union or association of similar kind of employees or employees having a similar bargaining goal. There is nothing in the Trade Union Act which prevents a Managerial staff member to join a trade union. The Trade Union Act has defined workman as any person employed and it does not have any relation with the definition of workman as given in the Industrial Disputes Act. Therefore, any employee is free to join a trade union. But since a union is an association of employees of related interests, if a manager joins a trade union formed for the benefit of workers, his interests or demands will not be discussed in a meeting of the workers. Moreover, a manager will not get the protections offered in the ID Act which are available to workmen. As such by joining a trade union a manager is inviting problems like negative remarks in performance appraisal and subsequent disciplinary action as it is found fit by the top management rather than strengthening his demands. Being a manager, he will not get any protection under the ID Act or the certified Standing Orders of the company, if available and his conditions of service will be decided on the basis of his contract of employment with the employer. Therefore, if the management decides that his services shall be terminated after giving due notice, it will be maintainable. However, it should be remembered that he should be a manager in all respect with supervisory or managerial powers and should not be confined to a mere designation.Regards,
Courts have held that managers can form trade unions. In Government Tool Room and Training Centres Supervisory and Officers’ Association, Bangalore Vs Asst. Labour Commissioner & Deputy Registrar of Trade Unions, Bangalore [(2002) 2 LLJ 339 (Kar)], it was held that any group of employees irrespective of whether they are ‘workmen’ under Industrial Disputes Act or not can be registered as a trade union under Trade Union Act. "
Madhu.T.K
attribution https://www.citehr.com/398360-trade-...#ixzz2mu0MuDqx
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear SDP,
Your 2nd posting was different from the first and too short. Can you provide more details when you have time, please? I am trying to make a decision.
Dear Samved,
Thank you. I know I can't put my legs in two boats. I need to choose one, but I am still confused. Being a union secretary, there were many circumstances where management and I were in tight conflict. I am concerned that after the promotion, they will treat me very badly.
From India, Poona
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Your 2nd posting was different from the first and too short. Can you provide more details when you have time, please? I am trying to make a decision.
Dear Samved,
Thank you. I know I can't put my legs in two boats. I need to choose one, but I am still confused. Being a union secretary, there were many circumstances where management and I were in tight conflict. I am concerned that after the promotion, they will treat me very badly.
From India, Poona
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Hi Rajkumar,
Thank you for the details. In my organization, the managerial category starts with the engineer post, followed by Senior Engineer, Assistant Manager, etc. Are engineers considered part of the managerial category in other firms?
Thank you.
From India, Poona
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Thank you for the details. In my organization, the managerial category starts with the engineer post, followed by Senior Engineer, Assistant Manager, etc. Are engineers considered part of the managerial category in other firms?
Thank you.
From India, Poona
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Yes; generally Engineers come under Managerial category. However, in some companies, "Diploma Engineers" are taken in Supervisory category. Regards.
From India, Delhi
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From India, Delhi
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Hello,
Two possibilities emerge!
Either your existing organization is promoting you with an evil design or is authentically offering you, noticing your qualities of leadership, communication, etc., an opportunity to grow.
If their observations regarding your qualities are correct and their intention is suspect, it is safe to DENY this opportunity within the organization and look for a similar opportunity outside of the organization (which is going to be rather difficult owing to your involvement with a trade union). Managing this conversion from a bargainable status to a non-bargainable status within the same organization is relatively easy. If later you see foul intentions, then you are still free to look for another opportunity outside. (Now easier - relatively, as you have already managed the conversion already.) But if you have no reasons to suspect your present management's intention, then you must pick up the courage to make the most of this opportunity of a lifetime.
In the present situation, you have been benefited by the organization's admission of your qualities, notwithstanding their intentions. Here is a window to a new world of opportunities to realize your potentials.
Does this set at rest some of your anxieties?
Think deep, and you will be able to resolve your own dilemma!
Regards,
Samvedan
December 9, 2013
From India, Pune
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Two possibilities emerge!
Either your existing organization is promoting you with an evil design or is authentically offering you, noticing your qualities of leadership, communication, etc., an opportunity to grow.
If their observations regarding your qualities are correct and their intention is suspect, it is safe to DENY this opportunity within the organization and look for a similar opportunity outside of the organization (which is going to be rather difficult owing to your involvement with a trade union). Managing this conversion from a bargainable status to a non-bargainable status within the same organization is relatively easy. If later you see foul intentions, then you are still free to look for another opportunity outside. (Now easier - relatively, as you have already managed the conversion already.) But if you have no reasons to suspect your present management's intention, then you must pick up the courage to make the most of this opportunity of a lifetime.
In the present situation, you have been benefited by the organization's admission of your qualities, notwithstanding their intentions. Here is a window to a new world of opportunities to realize your potentials.
Does this set at rest some of your anxieties?
Think deep, and you will be able to resolve your own dilemma!
Regards,
Samvedan
December 9, 2013
From India, Pune
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Dear Sunny,
Congratulations on being conferred with a promotion. You have rightly mentioned that being a Union Secretary, you had a tough time with management. Being a professional organization, your seniors and you should understand that giving them a tough time was part of your role, which you have justified by being in that position. There are no personal grudges against any of the seniors. I am confident that you made those bold decisions for the interest of the organization and not for personal gain.
My opinion suggests that you should grab the promotion opportunity and prove yourself in your new role.
All the best.
From India, Delhi
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Congratulations on being conferred with a promotion. You have rightly mentioned that being a Union Secretary, you had a tough time with management. Being a professional organization, your seniors and you should understand that giving them a tough time was part of your role, which you have justified by being in that position. There are no personal grudges against any of the seniors. I am confident that you made those bold decisions for the interest of the organization and not for personal gain.
My opinion suggests that you should grab the promotion opportunity and prove yourself in your new role.
All the best.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Sunny,
Your issue appears to be a dilemma between two options: either remaining as the Secretary of the union to pursue a promotion and be recognized as managerial personnel. Yes, it is possible. Firstly, the Industrial Disputes (ID) Act or Trade Union regulations do not prohibit you from being a union member or holding a union position after being promoted to a managerial role.
It seems that your union is recognized, and as a protected worker under Section 33(3 & 4) of the ID Act 1947, you would still be covered by the umbrella of protection. There are numerous cases of employees in supervisory or executive positions who continue to actively participate as trade union representatives, especially in public sector undertakings and banks.
While there may be some role conflicts, many organizations opt not to burden such employees with managerial responsibilities. Instead, they are considered as workmen only, in technical terms according to the ID Act.
KK
From India, Bhopal
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Your issue appears to be a dilemma between two options: either remaining as the Secretary of the union to pursue a promotion and be recognized as managerial personnel. Yes, it is possible. Firstly, the Industrial Disputes (ID) Act or Trade Union regulations do not prohibit you from being a union member or holding a union position after being promoted to a managerial role.
It seems that your union is recognized, and as a protected worker under Section 33(3 & 4) of the ID Act 1947, you would still be covered by the umbrella of protection. There are numerous cases of employees in supervisory or executive positions who continue to actively participate as trade union representatives, especially in public sector undertakings and banks.
While there may be some role conflicts, many organizations opt not to burden such employees with managerial responsibilities. Instead, they are considered as workmen only, in technical terms according to the ID Act.
KK
From India, Bhopal
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Dear Sunny,
It is very simple. The person who has supervisory power in the organization, given by the management, or if any employees are working under you, that means, under the law, you can seek protection under the banner of the union and employee protection. Your statement that you are expecting a promotion implies there may be a questionable role either by the management in promoting you to a higher level or you may be avoiding union activities. Both scenarios pose equal risks. I can provide examples of many of my friends who have continued to work in the same organization for years without receiving a promotion, despite their qualifications and knowledge that would qualify them for a senior management position. They choose to remain in the union to protect both themselves and their fellow employees, sharing their knowledge of labor laws.
I would advise that if you are capable of working at a supervisory/managerial level, the world is open to you for a bright future. You can choose to set aside your union activities and pursue advancement or continue to protect your colleagues while letting go of the expectation of a promotion. Both choices are commendable in the eyes of God.
Thanks & Regards,
Vijayan Krishnan
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It is very simple. The person who has supervisory power in the organization, given by the management, or if any employees are working under you, that means, under the law, you can seek protection under the banner of the union and employee protection. Your statement that you are expecting a promotion implies there may be a questionable role either by the management in promoting you to a higher level or you may be avoiding union activities. Both scenarios pose equal risks. I can provide examples of many of my friends who have continued to work in the same organization for years without receiving a promotion, despite their qualifications and knowledge that would qualify them for a senior management position. They choose to remain in the union to protect both themselves and their fellow employees, sharing their knowledge of labor laws.
I would advise that if you are capable of working at a supervisory/managerial level, the world is open to you for a bright future. You can choose to set aside your union activities and pursue advancement or continue to protect your colleagues while letting go of the expectation of a promotion. Both choices are commendable in the eyes of God.
Thanks & Regards,
Vijayan Krishnan
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Besides the points mentioned in the above posts, which are all relevant, you have to take into consideration your age, qualifications, and family commitments before making a decision. Social status is also another factor to reckon with.
From India, Madras
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From India, Madras
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Be careful. If they do not like you, they may sack you after your promotion or amend your trade union constitution to make management staff members of your union and change the title of the union.
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Rao,
While appreciating your concern and contribution, I must remind all that such interference by the management in union activity would amount to unfair labor practices and be punishable by law.
Warm regards,
Raj Kumar
From India, Delhi
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While appreciating your concern and contribution, I must remind all that such interference by the management in union activity would amount to unfair labor practices and be punishable by law.
Warm regards,
Raj Kumar
From India, Delhi
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Nothing of this sort is going to happen; no one is going to treat you badly just because of your elevation. There are numerous cases where people from Trade Union posts have gone to managerial positions and succeeded.
In fact, you will be in a better position to understand and resolve many issues related to management and workmen.
From India, Suri
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In fact, you will be in a better position to understand and resolve many issues related to management and workmen.
From India, Suri
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Hi friends,
Thanks for your concern. Let us conclude like this: most people advised saying "YES" to promotion, but it would be better to hand over union responsibilities to someone. On the other hand, some people advised keeping union responsibilities along with managerial status.
Anyway, before making any decision, I need to discuss the details with my family. I will come back...
From India, Poona
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Thanks for your concern. Let us conclude like this: most people advised saying "YES" to promotion, but it would be better to hand over union responsibilities to someone. On the other hand, some people advised keeping union responsibilities along with managerial status.
Anyway, before making any decision, I need to discuss the details with my family. I will come back...
From India, Poona
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Subject: Re: Union Office Bearer - Legal Protection During Promotion to Managerial Category
Dear S. Pallan,
I want you to consider the opportunity of promotion. Promotion will lead to additional responsibilities, a pay raise, status, and thereby a chance to showcase your skills and performance. However, if you stick with the so-called "union secretary protection," you will miss out on the opportunity to embrace new challenges and career growth. Forget the fear of job security and focus on your performance. This is my suggestion.
Regards,
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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Dear S. Pallan,
I want you to consider the opportunity of promotion. Promotion will lead to additional responsibilities, a pay raise, status, and thereby a chance to showcase your skills and performance. However, if you stick with the so-called "union secretary protection," you will miss out on the opportunity to embrace new challenges and career growth. Forget the fear of job security and focus on your performance. This is my suggestion.
Regards,
SDP
From India, Kolhapur
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Dear Mr. Sunny,
You have received responses from several learned members of this forum. The only aspect that I would like to add is, if you hand over your union responsibilities and join the Management bandwagon, certain decisions that could benefit the organization may affect the workmen. For example, downsizing due to economic slowdown, engagement of contract labor, etc. In such instances, if you are promoted, you need to wear the Management's hat and sort out the matter. In other words, if you continue to wear the Union hat, you will find it difficult.
The workmen, on the other hand, will expect you to wear the Union hat, though you are no longer a Union office bearer (as you have expressed that you intend to hand over the union responsibilities in the event of a promotion).
As rightly pointed out by a member, both sides are important. The first one offers personal growth and also offers you the opportunity to nurture and grow the organization from perspectives not explored by the organization till now. The second one offers social responsibility status and offers the opportunity to protect the workmen.
You seem to be a balanced personality and have promised to get back to us after discussing with your family members.
All the very best.
M.V. Kannan
From India, Madras
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You have received responses from several learned members of this forum. The only aspect that I would like to add is, if you hand over your union responsibilities and join the Management bandwagon, certain decisions that could benefit the organization may affect the workmen. For example, downsizing due to economic slowdown, engagement of contract labor, etc. In such instances, if you are promoted, you need to wear the Management's hat and sort out the matter. In other words, if you continue to wear the Union hat, you will find it difficult.
The workmen, on the other hand, will expect you to wear the Union hat, though you are no longer a Union office bearer (as you have expressed that you intend to hand over the union responsibilities in the event of a promotion).
As rightly pointed out by a member, both sides are important. The first one offers personal growth and also offers you the opportunity to nurture and grow the organization from perspectives not explored by the organization till now. The second one offers social responsibility status and offers the opportunity to protect the workmen.
You seem to be a balanced personality and have promised to get back to us after discussing with your family members.
All the very best.
M.V. Kannan
From India, Madras
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mr sunny, first make sure there no malafide intention behind your promotion offer by management
From India, Hyderabad
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From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Mr. Sunny,
Accepting or refusing a promotion is an entirely personal decision. By this time, you must have read the opinions coming from the esteemed members. If your union is going to support you for all times to come, then don't just be content with the internal union; take the union to a wider forum by remaining in the same post or use the promotion to fly high, gain experience, come back after some time, and use your experience by becoming a full-time union activist.
Remember, whether you are a woman or not, there is no guarantee of employment.
From India, Nagpur
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Accepting or refusing a promotion is an entirely personal decision. By this time, you must have read the opinions coming from the esteemed members. If your union is going to support you for all times to come, then don't just be content with the internal union; take the union to a wider forum by remaining in the same post or use the promotion to fly high, gain experience, come back after some time, and use your experience by becoming a full-time union activist.
Remember, whether you are a woman or not, there is no guarantee of employment.
From India, Nagpur
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