Thank you for your responses. I will take the right decision based on the same.
From India, Pune
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From India, Pune
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Dear infy_employee,
Welcome to CiteHR.com!
Yes, there are sufficient grounds for initiating disciplinary proceedings against you. The documents you intend to submit would not stand up to scrutiny by a specialist should the company choose to probe the matter deeper and further.
What was the actual reason for your leave? Why were you not able to apply for leave on genuine grounds?
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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1446Welcome to CiteHR.com!
Yes, there are sufficient grounds for initiating disciplinary proceedings against you. The documents you intend to submit would not stand up to scrutiny by a specialist should the company choose to probe the matter deeper and further.
What was the actual reason for your leave? Why were you not able to apply for leave on genuine grounds?
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear [Recipient],
You should be in trouble if you do not have a genuine cause for a leave of absence. My suggestion would be to open up with your Project Manager and provide a detailed account of the reasons for your absence. Ask for pardon; I hope he/she will understand and might warn you not to repeat this in the future and may let you off. Otherwise, on the basis of incorrect documents, disciplinary action might be initiated against you.
Regards,
A. Ratna Sekhar
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You should be in trouble if you do not have a genuine cause for a leave of absence. My suggestion would be to open up with your Project Manager and provide a detailed account of the reasons for your absence. Ask for pardon; I hope he/she will understand and might warn you not to repeat this in the future and may let you off. Otherwise, on the basis of incorrect documents, disciplinary action might be initiated against you.
Regards,
A. Ratna Sekhar
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Hello,
Like Raj Kumar and Ratna Sekhar mentioned, the grounds for disciplinary action are already laid out. But I have a feeling you aren't being completely honest with this forum, just like you weren't with your PM. There are definitely some missing links in your story—else you would have mentioned the actual reason for the unplanned leaves [frankly, I think they wouldn't have been unplanned—only unmentionable].
If you are in the right, you can expect full and total support from this excellent forum. But if you want to cover up something wrong with the advice of the members of this forum, I think you have come to the wrong place. And whether what you did is right or wrong is for the members of the forum to judge—not you. This can come about only if you mention the full and complete details. If you hesitate to mention all the info, you only give scope for all of us at CiteHR to both mistake/doubt your intentions and the submitted facts.
The conclusion and next step are up to you.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Like Raj Kumar and Ratna Sekhar mentioned, the grounds for disciplinary action are already laid out. But I have a feeling you aren't being completely honest with this forum, just like you weren't with your PM. There are definitely some missing links in your story—else you would have mentioned the actual reason for the unplanned leaves [frankly, I think they wouldn't have been unplanned—only unmentionable].
If you are in the right, you can expect full and total support from this excellent forum. But if you want to cover up something wrong with the advice of the members of this forum, I think you have come to the wrong place. And whether what you did is right or wrong is for the members of the forum to judge—not you. This can come about only if you mention the full and complete details. If you hesitate to mention all the info, you only give scope for all of us at CiteHR to both mistake/doubt your intentions and the submitted facts.
The conclusion and next step are up to you.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear All,
I believe there is an issue with the workplace leadership and some of the individuals who work there. Historically, there appears to be a general acceptance of such behavior or actions; otherwise, it would not have reached this point. I have witnessed it happening one too many times and have consistently inquired with the respective manager or leader about the actions they plan to take, only to receive a response of "none." This seems to be a common occurrence in many companies for reasons beyond my comprehension.
I view the individual at Infy as an example of the decadence that has taken hold, particularly in rapidly growing sectors like IT/ITES, Finance, Insurance, Healthcare, etc. Unless we, as HR representatives, act promptly, this attitude will only worsen to the detriment of all.
Thank you.
From India, Mumbai
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I believe there is an issue with the workplace leadership and some of the individuals who work there. Historically, there appears to be a general acceptance of such behavior or actions; otherwise, it would not have reached this point. I have witnessed it happening one too many times and have consistently inquired with the respective manager or leader about the actions they plan to take, only to receive a response of "none." This seems to be a common occurrence in many companies for reasons beyond my comprehension.
I view the individual at Infy as an example of the decadence that has taken hold, particularly in rapidly growing sectors like IT/ITES, Finance, Insurance, Healthcare, etc. Unless we, as HR representatives, act promptly, this attitude will only worsen to the detriment of all.
Thank you.
From India, Mumbai
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By the way, having been in the industry for nearly two decades, I am fully aware of the market dynamics, workforce challenges, competition for manpower, etc. What evades me is the general lack of willingness on the part of the manager/team leadership and all the way up to nip such attitudes/behavior in the bud. Action is initiated only if the issue at hand is so serious that no other remedy is available.
From India, Mumbai
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From India, Mumbai
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Dear Infy Employee,
You were lucky enough to escape on two occasions. The incident you mentioned definitely calls for disciplinary action. Please be genuine and honest with the details, or you might end up in trouble.
Regards,
Sultana
From India, Bangalore
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You were lucky enough to escape on two occasions. The incident you mentioned definitely calls for disciplinary action. Please be genuine and honest with the details, or you might end up in trouble.
Regards,
Sultana
From India, Bangalore
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Hello chronic patient,
Medical emergencies or exigencies cannot be planned unless you are a chronic patient or have a planned surgery. Anyway, please email me a brief write-up in chronological order, and let me see how I can help you.
CK SAFAYA
Advocate & HR Consultant
From India, New Delhi
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Medical emergencies or exigencies cannot be planned unless you are a chronic patient or have a planned surgery. Anyway, please email me a brief write-up in chronological order, and let me see how I can help you.
CK SAFAYA
Advocate & HR Consultant
From India, New Delhi
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You have stated that your boss knows that you have been "faking it". Well, if you have been genuinely ill and have genuine documents to support your illness, you need not worry. But as things stand and as admitted by you, Raj has correctly summarized that you could be heading for trouble. Yes, you may be liable for disciplinary proceedings by the company.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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If your scan, sonography reports, and doctor's prescription corroborate the nature of the illness quoted by you in your leave application, then you need not worry. However, if the reason/nature of illness quoted by you differs from the illness mentioned in your referred documents, disciplinary action cannot be avoided.
The reason for asking about the history of illness by your PM may also be with the intention to refer your case to a specialist for a second opinion to determine whether you are actually fit for the job or not.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
09968076381
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
From India, Delhi
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The reason for asking about the history of illness by your PM may also be with the intention to refer your case to a specialist for a second opinion to determine whether you are actually fit for the job or not.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
09968076381
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
From India, Delhi
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Dear INFY Employee,
By the way, the narrated details by you raise doubts on your own way of dealings/behavior!
The Company has its own process of redressal of grievances - I suppose!
Instead of using the internal system, you have put the matter to public - and I do not find any merit in defense for any action on you for not fulfilling your basic obligations as an employee.
At the outset, I feel you have not given justice to your own PM - who allowed you in faith to take leave on the supposed medical grounds!
Even then the PM cannot continue allowing you to take leave for over a month again - without any medical documents in support of your genuine (?) sickness.
However, time is also not lost so far - TELL THE TRUTH, CHRONOLOGICAL & LOGICAL EVENTS why the Medical supportive documents were not produced, and be frank and fair to your management - which has hired you for exchange of your desired, expected, and agreed services.
Once you do that, expect a fair deal from Mgt.!
You cannot be UNFAIR to the Management and at the same time expect FAIR deals from any Management!
Regards,
Ravi Waghmare
From India, Mumbai
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By the way, the narrated details by you raise doubts on your own way of dealings/behavior!
The Company has its own process of redressal of grievances - I suppose!
Instead of using the internal system, you have put the matter to public - and I do not find any merit in defense for any action on you for not fulfilling your basic obligations as an employee.
At the outset, I feel you have not given justice to your own PM - who allowed you in faith to take leave on the supposed medical grounds!
Even then the PM cannot continue allowing you to take leave for over a month again - without any medical documents in support of your genuine (?) sickness.
However, time is also not lost so far - TELL THE TRUTH, CHRONOLOGICAL & LOGICAL EVENTS why the Medical supportive documents were not produced, and be frank and fair to your management - which has hired you for exchange of your desired, expected, and agreed services.
Once you do that, expect a fair deal from Mgt.!
You cannot be UNFAIR to the Management and at the same time expect FAIR deals from any Management!
Regards,
Ravi Waghmare
From India, Mumbai
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The employer cannot take disciplinary action against you for having fallen sick, provided that you have informed him as early as possible and have produced a medical certificate from a qualified doctor. The doctor must be deemed qualified according to the service rules of your company to certify your sickness. If any action is taken against you despite meeting these conditions, it will not stand the scrutiny of a legal forum. There are numerous case laws supporting my contention. So, be cheerful.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Dear Sanusoman,
At times, it is good to exhibit a contrarian opinion. However, I suggest you read the submission in depth. The poster has faked his illness on two earlier occasions. Now, he is trying to fabricate a case out of two-month-old medical records and integrate it with a certificate from a GP. Please note that whether in a Departmental Enquiry or Labour/Civil court, an adept Prosecution Nominee/Lawyer can easily challenge such flimsy documentary evidence through determined, persistent cross-examination and by presenting their own witnesses, including Medical Experts and Specialists.
It is worth noting that while a lenient view is often taken to avoid equating employees with criminals, this should not be seen as a license for such misdeeds and misconduct.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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At times, it is good to exhibit a contrarian opinion. However, I suggest you read the submission in depth. The poster has faked his illness on two earlier occasions. Now, he is trying to fabricate a case out of two-month-old medical records and integrate it with a certificate from a GP. Please note that whether in a Departmental Enquiry or Labour/Civil court, an adept Prosecution Nominee/Lawyer can easily challenge such flimsy documentary evidence through determined, persistent cross-examination and by presenting their own witnesses, including Medical Experts and Specialists.
It is worth noting that while a lenient view is often taken to avoid equating employees with criminals, this should not be seen as a license for such misdeeds and misconduct.
Warm regards.
From India, Delhi
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I corroborate the views of Raj Kumar Hansdah, as disciplinary proceedings should never be taken lightly or as an empty formality.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
From India, Delhi
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PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
From India, Delhi
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The fact of the matter is: "The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice, and on both occasions, he has faked it; the third time it was genuine. The disciplinary authority has not given him even a memo on both occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts; not even required him to produce a medical certificate."
In this background, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. And in the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist upon examining the doctor(s); even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will corroborate the genuineness of the certificate.
As such, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence which the employer can cross-examine. And no management-side representative can rip through the document and establish that the documents were fake; more so because the documents were genuine; and mind you, the employee's side representative will not be an idiot.
Further, even for the earlier instances of fake illness, he can produce certificates if need be; so from a legal point of view, the employer has no ground to take action against the employee. And medical leaves taken supported by certificates are not sufficient grounds for disciplinary action. HR Managers should advise the employers accordingly.
Recently I have seen a guy known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave for more than six months. He was faking disc prolapse; the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home; he was not there at that time. His contention in court was that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment; it was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; yet the guy won his case.
In the case under reference, legally he is safe; let us not frighten him; and HR managers should not jump to the conclusion that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee concerned has any legal counsel required in this connection, I will help him; let him contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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In this background, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. And in the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist upon examining the doctor(s); even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will corroborate the genuineness of the certificate.
As such, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence which the employer can cross-examine. And no management-side representative can rip through the document and establish that the documents were fake; more so because the documents were genuine; and mind you, the employee's side representative will not be an idiot.
Further, even for the earlier instances of fake illness, he can produce certificates if need be; so from a legal point of view, the employer has no ground to take action against the employee. And medical leaves taken supported by certificates are not sufficient grounds for disciplinary action. HR Managers should advise the employers accordingly.
Recently I have seen a guy known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave for more than six months. He was faking disc prolapse; the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home; he was not there at that time. His contention in court was that he was taking Ayurvedic treatment; it was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; yet the guy won his case.
In the case under reference, legally he is safe; let us not frighten him; and HR managers should not jump to the conclusion that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee concerned has any legal counsel required in this connection, I will help him; let him contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Dear Sanu,
You should not forget that doctors are also bound by a code of conduct in their practice. Any predated fake medical certificate can land them in trouble, even resulting in the cancellation of their certificate of practice. Even if at a later date they issue a medical certificate for a past illness, they have to prove, with reference to the records they maintain, that the treatment was administered by them.
Regarding the winning of a case by an employee who was absent without authorization, claiming to be undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, it should not be assumed that every employee can win a case on such grounds. Undergoing Ayurvedic treatment does not exempt an employee from applying for leave or informing management about their illness within a reasonable time.
In the mentioned case, it appears that the management's advocate did not represent the case effectively. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the employee's unauthorized absence not to be proven effectively.
I don't believe community members should engage in teaching fraudulent practices. There are hundreds of legitimate ways to solve problems rather than resorting to malpractices. Malpractices, in such situations, can irreparably damage a case. I have a track record of more than 30 years in successfully defending my clients (both employees and management) in disciplinary proceedings based solely on genuine grounds, not through malpractices.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
The fact of the matter is:
"The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice, and on both occasions, he faked it; the third time it was genuine.
The disciplinary authority has not issued even a memo on both occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts, nor required him to produce a medical certificate."
In this context, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. During the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist on examining the doctor(s). Even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will confirm the authenticity of the certificate.
Therefore, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence that the employer can cross-examine. No representative from the management side can invalidate the document and prove it was fake, especially as the documents were genuine. Additionally, the employee's representative will be knowledgeable.
Furthermore, even for the previous instances of feigned illness, he can produce certificates if necessary. From a legal perspective, the employer has no grounds to take action against the employee solely based on medical leaves supported by certificates. HR Managers should advise employers accordingly.
Recently, I witnessed an individual known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave exceeding six months. He feigned disc prolapse; when the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home, he was not present. In court, he argued that he was undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, which was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; still, he won his case.
In the current case, legally, he is protected; let us not intimidate him. HR managers should refrain from assuming that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee requires legal counsel in this matter, I am willing to assist; they can contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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You should not forget that doctors are also bound by a code of conduct in their practice. Any predated fake medical certificate can land them in trouble, even resulting in the cancellation of their certificate of practice. Even if at a later date they issue a medical certificate for a past illness, they have to prove, with reference to the records they maintain, that the treatment was administered by them.
Regarding the winning of a case by an employee who was absent without authorization, claiming to be undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, it should not be assumed that every employee can win a case on such grounds. Undergoing Ayurvedic treatment does not exempt an employee from applying for leave or informing management about their illness within a reasonable time.
In the mentioned case, it appears that the management's advocate did not represent the case effectively. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the employee's unauthorized absence not to be proven effectively.
I don't believe community members should engage in teaching fraudulent practices. There are hundreds of legitimate ways to solve problems rather than resorting to malpractices. Malpractices, in such situations, can irreparably damage a case. I have a track record of more than 30 years in successfully defending my clients (both employees and management) in disciplinary proceedings based solely on genuine grounds, not through malpractices.
PS Dhingra
Management & Vigilance Consultant
Dhingra Group of Consultants
New Delhi
dcgroup1962@gmail.com
The fact of the matter is:
"The gentleman concerned has taken medical leave twice, and on both occasions, he faked it; the third time it was genuine.
The disciplinary authority has not issued even a memo on both occasions alleging that he has misrepresented facts, nor required him to produce a medical certificate."
In this context, if a charge memo is issued now after his genuine sickness, he can easily produce a genuine medical certificate. During the domestic inquiry, the employer cannot insist on examining the doctor(s). Even if the doctor is examined, during cross-examination, they will confirm the authenticity of the certificate.
Therefore, the certificate alone will be documentary evidence that the employer can cross-examine. No representative from the management side can invalidate the document and prove it was fake, especially as the documents were genuine. Additionally, the employee's representative will be knowledgeable.
Furthermore, even for the previous instances of feigned illness, he can produce certificates if necessary. From a legal perspective, the employer has no grounds to take action against the employee solely based on medical leaves supported by certificates. HR Managers should advise employers accordingly.
Recently, I witnessed an individual known to me winning his case of dismissal for unauthorized leave exceeding six months. He feigned disc prolapse; when the employer sent his Ortho surgeon to his home, he was not present. In court, he argued that he was undergoing Ayurvedic treatment, which was not an authorized method according to the company's standing orders; still, he won his case.
In the current case, legally, he is protected; let us not intimidate him. HR managers should refrain from assuming that what is fake is unwinnable. If the employee requires legal counsel in this matter, I am willing to assist; they can contact me.
Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient grounds to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available; not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer. The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct, and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. The punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct. It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority. Considering the facts and circumstances of the case, the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case, in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labor cases.
All talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black.
My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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All talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black.
My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all.
Sanu Soman
From India, Madras
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Dear Friend,
I am an employee of Infosys. I have taken unplanned leaves due to medical reasons, thrice so far (for about a month each time). However, my Project Manager (PM) knows that I'm faking it.
The very fact that you are openly admitting that you were faking illness is sufficient grounds to make you liable for disciplinary action. Also, the fact that your PM knows that you are faking lends greater weight to management's decision to take disciplinary measures against you (if they so decide).
The last two times, my PM did not ask me for any medical certificates. This time around, he wants me to produce my history of illness and medical reports. I have some scan and sonography reports (I had genuinely fallen ill 2 months before I went on leave) with me. I am planning to submit the same and a letter from my General Physician.
It was in good faith that your PM did not ask you to submit a Medical certificate in support of your illness earlier. But now, he must have seen through your ploy and is insisting that you produce a Medical Certificate for your period of absence from work.
You have yourself stated that you have some scan and sonography reports from when you genuinely fell ill two months before you went on leave and that you are planning to submit the same along with a letter from your General Physician.
Your falsehood is well established prima facie by your own admission, and you are liable for disciplinary action by the management.
Is there any ground on which disciplinary proceedings can be initiated despite producing a certificate from my family doctor?
Yes, there are more than sufficient grounds for the initiation of disciplinary proceedings against you.
Thanks and regards.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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I am an employee of Infosys. I have taken unplanned leaves due to medical reasons, thrice so far (for about a month each time). However, my Project Manager (PM) knows that I'm faking it.
The very fact that you are openly admitting that you were faking illness is sufficient grounds to make you liable for disciplinary action. Also, the fact that your PM knows that you are faking lends greater weight to management's decision to take disciplinary measures against you (if they so decide).
The last two times, my PM did not ask me for any medical certificates. This time around, he wants me to produce my history of illness and medical reports. I have some scan and sonography reports (I had genuinely fallen ill 2 months before I went on leave) with me. I am planning to submit the same and a letter from my General Physician.
It was in good faith that your PM did not ask you to submit a Medical certificate in support of your illness earlier. But now, he must have seen through your ploy and is insisting that you produce a Medical Certificate for your period of absence from work.
You have yourself stated that you have some scan and sonography reports from when you genuinely fell ill two months before you went on leave and that you are planning to submit the same along with a letter from your General Physician.
Your falsehood is well established prima facie by your own admission, and you are liable for disciplinary action by the management.
Is there any ground on which disciplinary proceedings can be initiated despite producing a certificate from my family doctor?
Yes, there are more than sufficient grounds for the initiation of disciplinary proceedings against you.
Thanks and regards.
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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A management can issue a charge sheet to an employee alleging that he sneezed forcefully in the office resulting in some papers flying off the table, causing some other employees to run after such papers, which ultimately resulted in a stampede, and ultimately terminate him from service. There is a prima facie case against him! And no force on earth can prevent the management from acting in such a ham-handed manner. But the question is whether such action will be found reasonable, legal, and justified by the appropriate legal forum. Though there was a stampede, the HR manager should advise against issuing a charge sheet because sneezing is an innocuous bodily action; not a willful malfeasance warranting punishment.
In the instant case, I reiterate, the management has not sufficient ground to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu Soman,
HR Manager
From India, Madras
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In the instant case, I reiterate, the management has not sufficient ground to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu Soman,
HR Manager
From India, Madras
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Dear Sanu,
Here in this case, probably only you are putting the cart (legal action) well before the horse (departmental disciplinary action that is still at the proposal stage).
It seems you have not properly read the main post by the employee. Better, please reread the very first post of the member who has asked for the opinion on whether the management can take any disciplinary action or not.
You have just jumped on legal action even when the case is at the proposal stage, which is not the question right now. Probably misinterpretations by people like you are the real cause of more litigation cases. You have admitted that disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. But when it has not been started yet, where is the question of any punishment or legal case?
"The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient grounds to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available; not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer. The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct, and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company; and the punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct. It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority. Considering the facts and circumstances of the case, the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case, in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labor cases. And all talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black. My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all." - Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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Here in this case, probably only you are putting the cart (legal action) well before the horse (departmental disciplinary action that is still at the proposal stage).
It seems you have not properly read the main post by the employee. Better, please reread the very first post of the member who has asked for the opinion on whether the management can take any disciplinary action or not.
You have just jumped on legal action even when the case is at the proposal stage, which is not the question right now. Probably misinterpretations by people like you are the real cause of more litigation cases. You have admitted that disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company. But when it has not been started yet, where is the question of any punishment or legal case?
"The discussion is about whether the employer has sufficient grounds to take legal action in the instant case with the facts of the case available; not about what is ethical or unethical practice on the part of the employee or the employer. The employer has to go by only the legal provisions while dealing with misconduct, and disciplinary action should be based on the service rules/standing orders of the company; and the punishment should not be disproportionate to the proven misconduct. It should not be based on the whims and fancy of the employer or the disciplinary authority. Considering the facts and circumstances of the case, the employee concerned cannot be given the economic death penalty in the instant case, in my opinion formed from 30 years of experience in dealing with labor cases. And all talk about taking action against doctors and getting their registration canceled is like putting the cart before the horse. Given the corporate frauds and scams and the subsequent arrests and 'rests' behind the bars of the scamsters, which has shocked the conscience of the entire world, less talked about ethicality, the better. Let us hope the employers and their incorrigible representatives will first set an ethical example for their employees to emulate; till then the pot has no locus standi to call the kettle black. My position is: the courts go by legality not ethicality; when employees have to challenge the employer's disciplinary action, it should be a no-holds-barred challenge; that's all." - Sanu Soman
From India, Delhi
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Hi Sanu,
This post of yours shows as if you prefer thinking more on hypothetical grounds rather than going through the reality of the case, as neither the question relates to legal action in a court of law, nor has the employee given the complete case history. However, the employee is free to adhere to your advice to file a premature legal case against the management if that suits him best.
But, for providing to-the-point advice, I once again reiterate that you may please better re-read the main thread posted by the employee. Your advice is totally on premature legal action on hypothetical grounds rather than on disciplinary action, which is still at the proposal stage and not even initiated yet.
"A management can issue a charge sheet to an employee alleging that he sneezed forcefully in the office, resulting in some papers flying off the table, causing other employees to run after such papers, which ultimately resulted in a stampede, and ultimately terminate him from service. There is a prima facie case against him, and no force on earth can prevent the management from acting in such a ham-handed manner. But the question is whether such action will be found reasonable, legal, and justified by the appropriate legal forum. Though there was a stampede, the HR manager should advise against issuing a charge sheet because sneezing is an innocuous bodily action, not a willful malfeasance warranting punishment.
In the instant case, I reiterate, the management does not have sufficient grounds to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu Soman,
HR Manager"
From India, Delhi
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This post of yours shows as if you prefer thinking more on hypothetical grounds rather than going through the reality of the case, as neither the question relates to legal action in a court of law, nor has the employee given the complete case history. However, the employee is free to adhere to your advice to file a premature legal case against the management if that suits him best.
But, for providing to-the-point advice, I once again reiterate that you may please better re-read the main thread posted by the employee. Your advice is totally on premature legal action on hypothetical grounds rather than on disciplinary action, which is still at the proposal stage and not even initiated yet.
"A management can issue a charge sheet to an employee alleging that he sneezed forcefully in the office, resulting in some papers flying off the table, causing other employees to run after such papers, which ultimately resulted in a stampede, and ultimately terminate him from service. There is a prima facie case against him, and no force on earth can prevent the management from acting in such a ham-handed manner. But the question is whether such action will be found reasonable, legal, and justified by the appropriate legal forum. Though there was a stampede, the HR manager should advise against issuing a charge sheet because sneezing is an innocuous bodily action, not a willful malfeasance warranting punishment.
In the instant case, I reiterate, the management does not have sufficient grounds to proceed against the employee. If it does, the employee will get judicial justice.
Sanu Soman,
HR Manager"
From India, Delhi
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Dear Sanu Soman,
I appreciate your views which are in support of employees!
If you see my posts in this forum, you will find that I also share a similar philosophy since an employee is always at a disadvantage against an employer. Management can act in erratic, insensitive, and unfair ways which can affect the career of an employee for life and the life of his family.
Incidentally, all members responding to this thread, namely Mr. P.S. Dhingra, Vasant Nair, tajsateesh, et al, also share the same philosophy of 'Natural Justice' and 'concern for people,' which you can ascertain yourself if you take care to read their previous posts.
However, we all must take care and use our wisdom to discriminate between those who are really needy, deserving, and are victims of management's high-handedness, and on the other hand, abstain from using our expertise and experience in supporting and propagating bad unethical practices.
Despite our repeated request, I would ask you once again to read the post again, especially the lines quoted below.
Do I need to say more?
This is NOT about disciplinary action for the period when the employee was on leave due to genuine sickness, but about his absenteeism later on, for which he has no explanation nor has offered any despite our request.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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I appreciate your views which are in support of employees!
If you see my posts in this forum, you will find that I also share a similar philosophy since an employee is always at a disadvantage against an employer. Management can act in erratic, insensitive, and unfair ways which can affect the career of an employee for life and the life of his family.
Incidentally, all members responding to this thread, namely Mr. P.S. Dhingra, Vasant Nair, tajsateesh, et al, also share the same philosophy of 'Natural Justice' and 'concern for people,' which you can ascertain yourself if you take care to read their previous posts.
However, we all must take care and use our wisdom to discriminate between those who are really needy, deserving, and are victims of management's high-handedness, and on the other hand, abstain from using our expertise and experience in supporting and propagating bad unethical practices.
Despite our repeated request, I would ask you once again to read the post again, especially the lines quoted below.
Do I need to say more?
This is NOT about disciplinary action for the period when the employee was on leave due to genuine sickness, but about his absenteeism later on, for which he has no explanation nor has offered any despite our request.
Regards.
From India, Delhi
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Dear Sanusoman,
You do have a very fertile imagination. It seems that you have read more into the original thread than what has been stated therein.
I will request you to please re-read the original thread carefully before you launch into your flight of fantasy and weave a new story altogether.
I will also request you to kindly read my response and that of Raj Kumar in this regard. I have responded paragraph-wise to the facts stated in the original thread, and that should, perhaps, give a better understanding of the issue at hand. You will appreciate that it relates to more than a "sneeze and resulting stampede in the office."
Best Wishes,
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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You do have a very fertile imagination. It seems that you have read more into the original thread than what has been stated therein.
I will request you to please re-read the original thread carefully before you launch into your flight of fantasy and weave a new story altogether.
I will also request you to kindly read my response and that of Raj Kumar in this regard. I have responded paragraph-wise to the facts stated in the original thread, and that should, perhaps, give a better understanding of the issue at hand. You will appreciate that it relates to more than a "sneeze and resulting stampede in the office."
Best Wishes,
Vasant Nair
From India, Mumbai
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