Dear All,
Requesting seniors to clarify my doubts!!!
Let's say if an employee informs his respective team manager/HR about his sick leave. After 2 days, he extends his leave for another 20 days via a phone call or SMS. In such cases, how many days maximum can his leave be extended? Does the employer have the right to terminate such an employee?
Regards,
Vinodkumar.C
From India, Chennai
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4Requesting seniors to clarify my doubts!!!
Let's say if an employee informs his respective team manager/HR about his sick leave. After 2 days, he extends his leave for another 20 days via a phone call or SMS. In such cases, how many days maximum can his leave be extended? Does the employer have the right to terminate such an employee?
Regards,
Vinodkumar.C
From India, Chennai
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Hi,
It depends on what type of company the employer is running. If it's a government undertaking, then you can't even think of termination in this case. However, you can't terminate in such a matter in a private organization either. You need to figure out what the actual reason is.
Grab the reason first, then act accordingly.
Regards
From India, Lucknow
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It depends on what type of company the employer is running. If it's a government undertaking, then you can't even think of termination in this case. However, you can't terminate in such a matter in a private organization either. You need to figure out what the actual reason is.
Grab the reason first, then act accordingly.
Regards
From India, Lucknow
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Dear Mr. Vinod,
You can't terminate any employee based solely on extended leave (sick, casual, PL). If an employee repeatedly takes extended leave, which hampers productivity, you can issue a warning letter. Additionally, you can limit sick leave to three instances in a single period; if an employee exceeds this limit, they must provide a medical report from an MBBS Doctor. If the employee exhausts all sick leave, you can adjust their PL. If all PL is also used up, you can proceed with salary deductions.
You have not mentioned the legal status of your company (Factory, Shops & Establishment, Company Act, Trust, etc.). It's important to establish a comprehensive policy for taking leave, holidays, and days off while considering legal requirements. Ensure all employees are informed about the process for requesting leave.
Terminating an employee solely on the grounds of extended leave is unethical and goes against labor laws.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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You can't terminate any employee based solely on extended leave (sick, casual, PL). If an employee repeatedly takes extended leave, which hampers productivity, you can issue a warning letter. Additionally, you can limit sick leave to three instances in a single period; if an employee exceeds this limit, they must provide a medical report from an MBBS Doctor. If the employee exhausts all sick leave, you can adjust their PL. If all PL is also used up, you can proceed with salary deductions.
You have not mentioned the legal status of your company (Factory, Shops & Establishment, Company Act, Trust, etc.). It's important to establish a comprehensive policy for taking leave, holidays, and days off while considering legal requirements. Ensure all employees are informed about the process for requesting leave.
Terminating an employee solely on the grounds of extended leave is unethical and goes against labor laws.
Thank you.
From India, Delhi
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He asked for 2 days of leave initially. He asked only once for 20 more days. He has not submitted any proof as of now, but he says after resuming work, he will submit all necessary medical documents.
My company offers a total of 15 days of casual and sick leave together per year, along with 12 earned leaves per year. Most importantly, he had submitted his resignation one month ago, and he has to serve an additional 60 days of notice period.
From India, Chennai
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My company offers a total of 15 days of casual and sick leave together per year, along with 12 earned leaves per year. Most importantly, he had submitted his resignation one month ago, and he has to serve an additional 60 days of notice period.
From India, Chennai
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Dear Mr. Vinod,
During the notice period, an employee working in private organizations like yours is normally allowed pro-rata leave only. This means that if a person is allowed 12 days of sick leave in a year, they will be eligible for only 2 days of sick leave during their 2-month notice period. It can be inferred that the concerned person wants clearance and experience certificates from you, which is why they applied for 20 days of sick leave. Pro-rata sick leave with medical sickness and fitness certificates should both be permitted. Please communicate with the individual over the phone to confirm this action, and also send an SMS to confirm it.
Regards,
RDS Yadav
Labour Law Adviser,
Director - Future Institute of Engineering and Technology
From India, Delhi
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During the notice period, an employee working in private organizations like yours is normally allowed pro-rata leave only. This means that if a person is allowed 12 days of sick leave in a year, they will be eligible for only 2 days of sick leave during their 2-month notice period. It can be inferred that the concerned person wants clearance and experience certificates from you, which is why they applied for 20 days of sick leave. Pro-rata sick leave with medical sickness and fitness certificates should both be permitted. Please communicate with the individual over the phone to confirm this action, and also send an SMS to confirm it.
Regards,
RDS Yadav
Labour Law Adviser,
Director - Future Institute of Engineering and Technology
From India, Delhi
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Terminating any employee will not serve any purpose. Firstly, ascertain whether he is truly sick or not. Afterward, you can take any action deemed fit, but it should be within the purview of the law.
I understand that in a private organization, such extended leave is not typically granted because work cannot be put on hold. However, on humanitarian grounds and depending on the circumstances, accommodations can be made.
From India, Lucknow
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I understand that in a private organization, such extended leave is not typically granted because work cannot be put on hold. However, on humanitarian grounds and depending on the circumstances, accommodations can be made.
From India, Lucknow
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Hello Vinodkumar,
Like Nathrao & Pan Singh mentioned, you need to ascertain the reasons before resorting to termination.
However, please clarify/confirm your company's notice period policy regarding leaves.
Most companies don't allow any leaves during the notice period. Even if medical leaves are taken, the notice period gets extended on a pro-rata basis. This means if an employee in the notice period takes 3 days of medical leave, their notice period gets extended by 3 days.
If you don't have this in your policy, I suggest including this aspect as soon as possible. Nowadays, many employees find ways to just complete the notice period 'on paper' rather than doing any worthwhile work. Medical certificates are 'dime a dozen' - when even degree certificates can be faked, do you think the employee can't produce a medical certificate?
Regarding the actual query about terminating this employee, what are you trying to achieve? Let's assume there are ways to terminate him - what next? Has your purpose been achieved - whatever it is/was? I doubt it.
I think you need to focus on whether he has handed over/completed all tasks he is supposed to. That's what affects your company in the long run. Not whether you fire him or give him medals before leaving.
In such cases/situations, 'thinking through the head' is far more effective and needed than 'thinking through the heart'.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Like Nathrao & Pan Singh mentioned, you need to ascertain the reasons before resorting to termination.
However, please clarify/confirm your company's notice period policy regarding leaves.
Most companies don't allow any leaves during the notice period. Even if medical leaves are taken, the notice period gets extended on a pro-rata basis. This means if an employee in the notice period takes 3 days of medical leave, their notice period gets extended by 3 days.
If you don't have this in your policy, I suggest including this aspect as soon as possible. Nowadays, many employees find ways to just complete the notice period 'on paper' rather than doing any worthwhile work. Medical certificates are 'dime a dozen' - when even degree certificates can be faked, do you think the employee can't produce a medical certificate?
Regarding the actual query about terminating this employee, what are you trying to achieve? Let's assume there are ways to terminate him - what next? Has your purpose been achieved - whatever it is/was? I doubt it.
I think you need to focus on whether he has handed over/completed all tasks he is supposed to. That's what affects your company in the long run. Not whether you fire him or give him medals before leaving.
In such cases/situations, 'thinking through the head' is far more effective and needed than 'thinking through the heart'.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear All,
I thank everyone who took the effort to share your valuable information and suggestions.
Let me provide a few more details about the scenario. We have learned from a source that this person has received an offer from another company at his location and is attempting to leave within 30 days from here to join the new company as soon as possible. It is likely that he has agreed to join them in 45 to 60 days. To expedite this process, he has created a false impression about himself, claiming illness, among other things, in order to gain sympathy benefits. However, he is confident that he will submit his medical records upon his return. Even if he submits all the necessary records, we are disappointed in him due to his deceitful behavior. Keeping an individual with such an attitude will not be advantageous for my company since he will likely be unable to focus on his work effectively.
"We are aware that he is being deceitful, but we lack concrete proof to confirm this."
As per our company policy, if an individual takes leave during the notice period, they are required to extend their working days on a pro-rata basis. However, requesting him to extend his time with us will not be beneficial. We have two options: either facilitate his smooth departure by providing all necessary relieving documents and full and final settlements, or impart a lesson to him for his deceptive actions.
Kindly provide me with further suggestions on this matter.
Regards,
Vinodkumar C.
From India, Chennai
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I thank everyone who took the effort to share your valuable information and suggestions.
Let me provide a few more details about the scenario. We have learned from a source that this person has received an offer from another company at his location and is attempting to leave within 30 days from here to join the new company as soon as possible. It is likely that he has agreed to join them in 45 to 60 days. To expedite this process, he has created a false impression about himself, claiming illness, among other things, in order to gain sympathy benefits. However, he is confident that he will submit his medical records upon his return. Even if he submits all the necessary records, we are disappointed in him due to his deceitful behavior. Keeping an individual with such an attitude will not be advantageous for my company since he will likely be unable to focus on his work effectively.
"We are aware that he is being deceitful, but we lack concrete proof to confirm this."
As per our company policy, if an individual takes leave during the notice period, they are required to extend their working days on a pro-rata basis. However, requesting him to extend his time with us will not be beneficial. We have two options: either facilitate his smooth departure by providing all necessary relieving documents and full and final settlements, or impart a lesson to him for his deceptive actions.
Kindly provide me with further suggestions on this matter.
Regards,
Vinodkumar C.
From India, Chennai
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Hello Nathrao,
Regarding your remark "Allowing smooth exit will make your company a better place to work," I think Vinodkumar's apprehension was towards this becoming a precedence than focusing on this individual case alone. While being nice is definitely good, HR also needs to ensure that the company is not taken for granted. Relieve him by all means... as you mentioned, retaining such employees causes more trouble than benefit. However, also ensure that he/she doesn't become a precedent for others to follow the same path.
@ Vinodkumar-- Maybe it would help others to suggest changes if you can copy/paste your Notice Period Policy here.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Regarding your remark "Allowing smooth exit will make your company a better place to work," I think Vinodkumar's apprehension was towards this becoming a precedence than focusing on this individual case alone. While being nice is definitely good, HR also needs to ensure that the company is not taken for granted. Relieve him by all means... as you mentioned, retaining such employees causes more trouble than benefit. However, also ensure that he/she doesn't become a precedent for others to follow the same path.
@ Vinodkumar-- Maybe it would help others to suggest changes if you can copy/paste your Notice Period Policy here.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Your observation has already been addressed in my response, Nathrao. Just that I didn't quote both the lines. Please see the second paragraph of my response.
What everyone seems to be focusing on is how to handle this case, while I am focusing on both how to handle this case and also ensure such cases don't recur in the future, or at least the chances are minimized.
That's all.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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What everyone seems to be focusing on is how to handle this case, while I am focusing on both how to handle this case and also ensure such cases don't recur in the future, or at least the chances are minimized.
That's all.
Regards,
TS
From India, Hyderabad
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Dear Sathish ,
Plz find my company policy details gothrough & let me know
LEAVE POLICY
All Permanent Employees are eligible for 15 days of Casual Leave and Sick Leave for the calendar year.
Casual Leave and Sick Leave will be credited at the beginning of calendar year. An employee is eligible for a maximum of 15 days both Casual Leave and Sick Leave in a calendar year.
Casual Leave cannot be availed for more than 3 days continuously. - If an employee avails of more than 15 days Casual Leave or Sick leave during the calendar year, excess leave will be deducted as PL or if PL is not available they will be treated as Loss of Pay.
However, adjustment of CL/SL for more than 6 days against PL is with the discretion of management designed only to help personal emergencies of the employees.
All leaves should be applied for in advance unless circumstances are such that it is not possible to do so. In such cases a telephone call or an SMS to the concerned Reporting Authority or in his/her absence to the Department Head should be done before 7:30 AM on that day.
If the same is not done, the leave may be considered as unapproved and may be treated as leave with Loss of Pay at the discretion of the Management. - In case of Sick Leave in excess of 2 days, the employee has to compulsorily submit a doctor certificate along with medical prescription / test reports.
If this is not submitted on the date of rejoining, the leave may be considered as Loss of Pay at the discretion of the management. - Casual Leave will be adjusted in the following order: Compensatory off, if they have credit. Casual Leave credit Privilege Leave upto maximum 6 days
NOTICE OF TERMINATION
The period of Notice for the termination of this appointment to be given in writing by you and/or by the Company to either side is 90 days.
Notices shall be given by either party by letter to the other party and any notice given by letter shall be deemed to have been delivered after 48 hours of being left with the Post Office with the full postage paid and receipt obtained or if delivered by hand upon delivery. In proving service by post it shall be sufficient to prove that the notice was properly addressed and posted.
If you are found guilty of any Gross Misconduct or disobedience, disorderly behaviour, negligence, indiscipline, absence from duty without intimating to the management and divulgence of any Confidential Information of the Company or of violation of one or more terms of this letter, or non compliance of instructions of superiors, non performance of duty as per the requirement of this job including complying with client instruction, repeat quality lapses etc. your services may be terminated by the Company without any notice and without payment of salary in lieu of Notice.
pon termination of appointment you shall forthwith return to the Company all you will immediately deliver to the Company all books, lap top computers, mobile phones, paper, documents, effects, money, securities, records, computer disks and data in soft and hard copies or other property what so ever belonging to the Company or to its customer which you then have or should have in his possession, power or control.
If you terminate your employment without giving such notice, you will be liable to pay to the Company 90 days pay and allowances.
As per COC Document
He will make available his services to the Company as per this Employment Agreement on a continuous basis except when on leave/vacation with prior approval of the Director of the Company from XXXX Head office. Such leave will be governed by Leave Policy circulated from time to time. In the event of sickness or other like cause incapacitating him from performing his duties, he or someone on his behalf must notify to his immediate senior / CEO of the Company as soon as possible on the first working day of any period of sickness and on every week thereafter. The notification may be by telephone followed by letter in writing for absenteeism due to sickness, which should be within 2 days from the first working day of any period of sickness in respect of absence lasting 5 days or fewer calendar days. He must however; complete the Company’s self-certification form immediately before he returns to work after such absence.
In respect of absence lasting more than 2 calendar days he must (in addition to the provision of a completed self certification form) obtain a medical certificate signed by a doctor to cover the entire period of illness (including Saturdays and Sundays) and keep the Company regularly informed about the expected date of return to work. This and any subsequent medical certificates must be sent to the Head Office of the Company without delay.
If his absenteeism without intimation to the Company shall continue for more than 30 days, it will be entirely at the discretion of the Company whether to continue or terminate this Employment Agreement. If the Company chooses to terminate this Employment Agreement, it can do so with immediate effect after 30th day of absenteeism of XXXXXXXX, without requiring to give any notice or salary in lieu of Notice.
Regards,
Vinodkumar
From India, Chennai
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Plz find my company policy details gothrough & let me know
LEAVE POLICY
All Permanent Employees are eligible for 15 days of Casual Leave and Sick Leave for the calendar year.
Casual Leave and Sick Leave will be credited at the beginning of calendar year. An employee is eligible for a maximum of 15 days both Casual Leave and Sick Leave in a calendar year.
Casual Leave cannot be availed for more than 3 days continuously. - If an employee avails of more than 15 days Casual Leave or Sick leave during the calendar year, excess leave will be deducted as PL or if PL is not available they will be treated as Loss of Pay.
However, adjustment of CL/SL for more than 6 days against PL is with the discretion of management designed only to help personal emergencies of the employees.
All leaves should be applied for in advance unless circumstances are such that it is not possible to do so. In such cases a telephone call or an SMS to the concerned Reporting Authority or in his/her absence to the Department Head should be done before 7:30 AM on that day.
If the same is not done, the leave may be considered as unapproved and may be treated as leave with Loss of Pay at the discretion of the Management. - In case of Sick Leave in excess of 2 days, the employee has to compulsorily submit a doctor certificate along with medical prescription / test reports.
If this is not submitted on the date of rejoining, the leave may be considered as Loss of Pay at the discretion of the management. - Casual Leave will be adjusted in the following order: Compensatory off, if they have credit. Casual Leave credit Privilege Leave upto maximum 6 days
NOTICE OF TERMINATION
The period of Notice for the termination of this appointment to be given in writing by you and/or by the Company to either side is 90 days.
Notices shall be given by either party by letter to the other party and any notice given by letter shall be deemed to have been delivered after 48 hours of being left with the Post Office with the full postage paid and receipt obtained or if delivered by hand upon delivery. In proving service by post it shall be sufficient to prove that the notice was properly addressed and posted.
If you are found guilty of any Gross Misconduct or disobedience, disorderly behaviour, negligence, indiscipline, absence from duty without intimating to the management and divulgence of any Confidential Information of the Company or of violation of one or more terms of this letter, or non compliance of instructions of superiors, non performance of duty as per the requirement of this job including complying with client instruction, repeat quality lapses etc. your services may be terminated by the Company without any notice and without payment of salary in lieu of Notice.
pon termination of appointment you shall forthwith return to the Company all you will immediately deliver to the Company all books, lap top computers, mobile phones, paper, documents, effects, money, securities, records, computer disks and data in soft and hard copies or other property what so ever belonging to the Company or to its customer which you then have or should have in his possession, power or control.
If you terminate your employment without giving such notice, you will be liable to pay to the Company 90 days pay and allowances.
As per COC Document
He will make available his services to the Company as per this Employment Agreement on a continuous basis except when on leave/vacation with prior approval of the Director of the Company from XXXX Head office. Such leave will be governed by Leave Policy circulated from time to time. In the event of sickness or other like cause incapacitating him from performing his duties, he or someone on his behalf must notify to his immediate senior / CEO of the Company as soon as possible on the first working day of any period of sickness and on every week thereafter. The notification may be by telephone followed by letter in writing for absenteeism due to sickness, which should be within 2 days from the first working day of any period of sickness in respect of absence lasting 5 days or fewer calendar days. He must however; complete the Company’s self-certification form immediately before he returns to work after such absence.
In respect of absence lasting more than 2 calendar days he must (in addition to the provision of a completed self certification form) obtain a medical certificate signed by a doctor to cover the entire period of illness (including Saturdays and Sundays) and keep the Company regularly informed about the expected date of return to work. This and any subsequent medical certificates must be sent to the Head Office of the Company without delay.
If his absenteeism without intimation to the Company shall continue for more than 30 days, it will be entirely at the discretion of the Company whether to continue or terminate this Employment Agreement. If the Company chooses to terminate this Employment Agreement, it can do so with immediate effect after 30th day of absenteeism of XXXXXXXX, without requiring to give any notice or salary in lieu of Notice.
Regards,
Vinodkumar
From India, Chennai
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Dear Mr. Vinod,
You have stated that the employee is unwell, which is not true. When management observes that an employee is not adhering to the company's values, rules, neglecting duties,assignments, and persisting in being absent, it may necessitate administrative or disciplinary action. As you do not have proof, kindly request the employee to provide a medical certificate and test reports supporting the claimed sickness from both him and his doctor. You also have the right to seek a second opinion from another doctor. Send a Registered Letter to the employee's doctor, informing them that the absence was backed by a sick/unfit certificate that should be promptly reviewed and corrected. You may also warn that if the medical certificate is discovered to be false or fraudulent, the matter will be reported to the Medical Council, potentially resulting in the revocation of the doctor's registration for their actions. I have handled a similar case in the past, where an ESI doctor issued a false certificate. I addressed the issue by requesting the employee to undergo a reexamination of their sickness, highlighting the falsified certificate and sending copies to the relevant ESI doctor, General Hospital, and Medical Board. The dishonest ESI Doctor later apologized after being confronted, and the employee faced disciplinary action with a formal notation in their record.
The key point here is that you cannot afford to overlook any illegal or unjustified actions and must not assume a passive stance of helplessness, especially when it pertains to matters governed by service rules, as it is your duty to act.
Regards,
RDS Yadav
Labour Law Adviser
DIRECTOR - Future Instt. of Engineering and Management Technology
From India, Delhi
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You have stated that the employee is unwell, which is not true. When management observes that an employee is not adhering to the company's values, rules, neglecting duties,assignments, and persisting in being absent, it may necessitate administrative or disciplinary action. As you do not have proof, kindly request the employee to provide a medical certificate and test reports supporting the claimed sickness from both him and his doctor. You also have the right to seek a second opinion from another doctor. Send a Registered Letter to the employee's doctor, informing them that the absence was backed by a sick/unfit certificate that should be promptly reviewed and corrected. You may also warn that if the medical certificate is discovered to be false or fraudulent, the matter will be reported to the Medical Council, potentially resulting in the revocation of the doctor's registration for their actions. I have handled a similar case in the past, where an ESI doctor issued a false certificate. I addressed the issue by requesting the employee to undergo a reexamination of their sickness, highlighting the falsified certificate and sending copies to the relevant ESI doctor, General Hospital, and Medical Board. The dishonest ESI Doctor later apologized after being confronted, and the employee faced disciplinary action with a formal notation in their record.
The key point here is that you cannot afford to overlook any illegal or unjustified actions and must not assume a passive stance of helplessness, especially when it pertains to matters governed by service rules, as it is your duty to act.
Regards,
RDS Yadav
Labour Law Adviser
DIRECTOR - Future Instt. of Engineering and Management Technology
From India, Delhi
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