Hi Jeevan,
I think you have developed a mental block on the issue.
OK, I woud like to know your definition of Managing/ Management first and then take on this topic further.
It is important to know what you understand with this term and then discuss.
I seriously believe that we HR manages the Human Resource in consultation with the respective HOD.
If my child is not well, i manage and take him to hospital, nurse him/her, take good care and then manage the rest of the things for other members of family, I call it MANAGMENT, I don't know what you name it.
Similarly, if an employee is not well(stressed, depressed, sad, personal issues), I as an HR Manager will take care of him and manage to take him/her out of this situation.
Isnt it Management.
Regards,
Archna
From India, Delhi
113I think you have developed a mental block on the issue.
OK, I woud like to know your definition of Managing/ Management first and then take on this topic further.
It is important to know what you understand with this term and then discuss.
I seriously believe that we HR manages the Human Resource in consultation with the respective HOD.
If my child is not well, i manage and take him to hospital, nurse him/her, take good care and then manage the rest of the things for other members of family, I call it MANAGMENT, I don't know what you name it.
Similarly, if an employee is not well(stressed, depressed, sad, personal issues), I as an HR Manager will take care of him and manage to take him/her out of this situation.
Isnt it Management.
Regards,
Archna
From India, Delhi
Dear Archna,
Thanks for giving a very nice example clearly showing who is really managing the human resource.
If your child is sick, you take the child to the doctor and get the child treated. You say you are the one managing the child, it is your child, the doctor is NOT managing the child, he is only giving medical treatment.
Going by the same anology, the line managers send their human resource to HR dept. for treatment for solving people issues. The HR manager, like your doctor, is giving the specialist's treatment. He is not managing the human resource, it is only the line manager, who is managing as you said in your anology that the doctor is not managing your child, but you are only managing.
You are managing your child in consultation with the doctor.
The line manager is managing HR in consultation with HR dept. as per your example.
(I hope you will not say you are finding people issues out of your own search without they being reported to you by line managers or found through surveys approved by top management.)
Best regards,
Jeevan.
From India, Bangalore
Thanks for giving a very nice example clearly showing who is really managing the human resource.
If your child is sick, you take the child to the doctor and get the child treated. You say you are the one managing the child, it is your child, the doctor is NOT managing the child, he is only giving medical treatment.
Going by the same anology, the line managers send their human resource to HR dept. for treatment for solving people issues. The HR manager, like your doctor, is giving the specialist's treatment. He is not managing the human resource, it is only the line manager, who is managing as you said in your anology that the doctor is not managing your child, but you are only managing.
You are managing your child in consultation with the doctor.
The line manager is managing HR in consultation with HR dept. as per your example.
(I hope you will not say you are finding people issues out of your own search without they being reported to you by line managers or found through surveys approved by top management.)
Best regards,
Jeevan.
From India, Bangalore
Railway Minister does not know how to get the loco moving or any engineering skills to master the operation and control management but if, GOD Forbids (My astrologer major accident happens, all the blame is on his head not only on ethical grounds but as per professional grounds as well. Well the professional aspects are learnt with time and experience but basics (regarding road safety etc. are known as much as to a two wheeler driver as to a truck driver.
The concept of Development is to be clearly defined to understand Managemnt. Development is a very vast concept as covers every aspect of management. A developer does not directly manage the workforce but management of the workforce is subsidary of development. For a devloped Country the management need to be foresighted and planned.
The concept of Development is to be clearly defined to understand Managemnt. Development is a very vast concept as covers every aspect of management. A developer does not directly manage the workforce but management of the workforce is subsidary of development. For a devloped Country the management need to be foresighted and planned.
Dear Aby,
The railway minister certainly administers the railways - including the railway employees. He is responsible for the railways human resource too. It is not the HRD minister who should resign holding responsibilty for the mistake done in railways management by railways people, because HRD minister is supposed to be managing all the people of the country including railway employees - as per Sushant's example.
This is what I have been telling.
But, HRD is certainly not HRM, because the moment you say management, it is then having control over the resources, streamlining, disciplining, deploying on work, extracting the work and so on.
Development, as you said is vast, and human resource development in particular is again a highly specialised area. That is why, already few big IT companies have detached this function from their HR departments clearly realizing this fact and started Training Academy under a Dean or VP Training, who is not reporting to HR Chief, but to the CEO. The moment training becomes very very crucial for business, it will cease to be under the HRM dept. as is evidenced nowadays.
Thanks,
Jeevan.
From India, Bangalore
The railway minister certainly administers the railways - including the railway employees. He is responsible for the railways human resource too. It is not the HRD minister who should resign holding responsibilty for the mistake done in railways management by railways people, because HRD minister is supposed to be managing all the people of the country including railway employees - as per Sushant's example.
This is what I have been telling.
But, HRD is certainly not HRM, because the moment you say management, it is then having control over the resources, streamlining, disciplining, deploying on work, extracting the work and so on.
Development, as you said is vast, and human resource development in particular is again a highly specialised area. That is why, already few big IT companies have detached this function from their HR departments clearly realizing this fact and started Training Academy under a Dean or VP Training, who is not reporting to HR Chief, but to the CEO. The moment training becomes very very crucial for business, it will cease to be under the HRM dept. as is evidenced nowadays.
Thanks,
Jeevan.
From India, Bangalore
Dear friends,
I would like to just remind that Administration and Management are different as you may be aware of this already. I am not sure whether we should bring in Govt. minister's example in our discussion on management, as they - the ministers are not managers, but only administrators.
Moreover, a company is a corporate entity - with narrower boundaries when compared to a national level administration - engaged in a specific activity of providing products or services, and the employees of this entity are very much identified with the products or services coming from it, and a major part of the employees are directly responsible for the prodcution or services.
Unless the company continues to specialise in its products / services, it cannot survive or grow. Such specilisation greatly depends upon how the employees specialise themselves towards this objective. So, the HR management must be specific to the company's products / services, though the word management conveys a more general meaning.
You see the IT companies want HR managers from other IT companies only. Why is it so, if HR management is all about just dealing with people?
Human Resource Management is about managing the people at work - the workforce.
And, who is managing the people at work, when they are at work? The HR manager?
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
I would like to just remind that Administration and Management are different as you may be aware of this already. I am not sure whether we should bring in Govt. minister's example in our discussion on management, as they - the ministers are not managers, but only administrators.
Moreover, a company is a corporate entity - with narrower boundaries when compared to a national level administration - engaged in a specific activity of providing products or services, and the employees of this entity are very much identified with the products or services coming from it, and a major part of the employees are directly responsible for the prodcution or services.
Unless the company continues to specialise in its products / services, it cannot survive or grow. Such specilisation greatly depends upon how the employees specialise themselves towards this objective. So, the HR management must be specific to the company's products / services, though the word management conveys a more general meaning.
You see the IT companies want HR managers from other IT companies only. Why is it so, if HR management is all about just dealing with people?
Human Resource Management is about managing the people at work - the workforce.
And, who is managing the people at work, when they are at work? The HR manager?
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
Dear friends,
I would like to just remind that Administration and Management are different as you may be aware of this already. I am not sure whether we should bring in Govt. minister's example in our discussion on management, as they - the ministers are not managers, but only administrators.
Moreover, a company is a corporate entity - with narrower boundaries when compared to a national level administration - engaged in a specific activity of providing products or services, and the employees of this entity are very much identified with the products or services coming from it, and a major part of the employees are directly responsible for the prodcution or services.
Unless the company continues to specialise in its products / services, it cannot survive or grow. Such specilisation greatly depends upon how the employees specialise themselves towards this objective. So, the HR management must be specific to the company's products / services, though the word management conveys a more general meaning.
You see the IT companies want HR managers from other IT companies only when they recruit. Why is it so, if HR management is all about just dealing with people?
Human Resource Management is about managing the people at work - the workforce.
And, who is managing the people at work, when they are at work? The HR manager?
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
I would like to just remind that Administration and Management are different as you may be aware of this already. I am not sure whether we should bring in Govt. minister's example in our discussion on management, as they - the ministers are not managers, but only administrators.
Moreover, a company is a corporate entity - with narrower boundaries when compared to a national level administration - engaged in a specific activity of providing products or services, and the employees of this entity are very much identified with the products or services coming from it, and a major part of the employees are directly responsible for the prodcution or services.
Unless the company continues to specialise in its products / services, it cannot survive or grow. Such specilisation greatly depends upon how the employees specialise themselves towards this objective. So, the HR management must be specific to the company's products / services, though the word management conveys a more general meaning.
You see the IT companies want HR managers from other IT companies only when they recruit. Why is it so, if HR management is all about just dealing with people?
Human Resource Management is about managing the people at work - the workforce.
And, who is managing the people at work, when they are at work? The HR manager?
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
Hi,
There is forum on 'Why employees hate HR?' initiated by Mallet in CiteHR as you could see.
I have attached an article on 'Why we hate HR?' that appeared in the Fast Company magazine in August 2005.
I am attaching the copy of the same article in this forum too, as it is suggesting that the HR Manager is not 'managing', but is only 'damaging' the human resource. This is quite a damaging statement, is it not?
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
There is forum on 'Why employees hate HR?' initiated by Mallet in CiteHR as you could see.
I have attached an article on 'Why we hate HR?' that appeared in the Fast Company magazine in August 2005.
I am attaching the copy of the same article in this forum too, as it is suggesting that the HR Manager is not 'managing', but is only 'damaging' the human resource. This is quite a damaging statement, is it not?
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
dear jeev,
your query remind me the case of parant fighting for the custody of the infant on the basis of who can take care in a better way.
Mother feels that he is the producer of the baby so she can better understand baby's need.
Father thinks that he is the reason for the baby's existance so he will take care in a better way.
now relate this situation to your request.
If you carefully observe to all the department objectives and goal then you will realises they are restricted mostly towards their primary and principal objectives.
In case of Marketing manager the are mostly envolve in to managing the market value of the company and generating the lead for the organisation.
For finance , generating and managing the finance through all possible means are their primary objectives.
for Production manager Meeting the scheduled target is their mission.
in all three cases their principal goal is to meet their objectives for that they have been taken.
They are not managing people but manging Finance, Market and production etc. through available human potentials with them.
In tour case if you think that finance is purely manged by manager finace/ market is managged by Mgr. Marketing or other dept then its time to turnaround your views beause even if you study properly then HR managers are managing Finance of their budgets,mgr. finace only provide them the fund for their expences on training/salary/recreation/tours/ books etc. same with the other managers of their depts.
Like wise the principal goal of the Manager Human Resources is not to manage Finance, Market or Production but to manage the human resources for the different departmental needs and supply then as per requirements on time.
Pl. be clear that Managing People does not means mearely what the other dept. managing through available resources but managing through entire available resources at micro and macro level.
Here i donot discussing about the training,discipline or other issue related to hr because this will not justify your answer.
So when the principal objectives of any dept. indicates their role and responsibilities then it called by their name.
Just like making a movie involves so many people right fro dance director to figjht master to costume designer but the main lead goes to Director whoe is the radix behind all these activities.
Regards,
Pranav
From India, Pune
your query remind me the case of parant fighting for the custody of the infant on the basis of who can take care in a better way.
Mother feels that he is the producer of the baby so she can better understand baby's need.
Father thinks that he is the reason for the baby's existance so he will take care in a better way.
now relate this situation to your request.
If you carefully observe to all the department objectives and goal then you will realises they are restricted mostly towards their primary and principal objectives.
In case of Marketing manager the are mostly envolve in to managing the market value of the company and generating the lead for the organisation.
For finance , generating and managing the finance through all possible means are their primary objectives.
for Production manager Meeting the scheduled target is their mission.
in all three cases their principal goal is to meet their objectives for that they have been taken.
They are not managing people but manging Finance, Market and production etc. through available human potentials with them.
In tour case if you think that finance is purely manged by manager finace/ market is managged by Mgr. Marketing or other dept then its time to turnaround your views beause even if you study properly then HR managers are managing Finance of their budgets,mgr. finace only provide them the fund for their expences on training/salary/recreation/tours/ books etc. same with the other managers of their depts.
Like wise the principal goal of the Manager Human Resources is not to manage Finance, Market or Production but to manage the human resources for the different departmental needs and supply then as per requirements on time.
Pl. be clear that Managing People does not means mearely what the other dept. managing through available resources but managing through entire available resources at micro and macro level.
Here i donot discussing about the training,discipline or other issue related to hr because this will not justify your answer.
So when the principal objectives of any dept. indicates their role and responsibilities then it called by their name.
Just like making a movie involves so many people right fro dance director to figjht master to costume designer but the main lead goes to Director whoe is the radix behind all these activities.
Regards,
Pranav
From India, Pune
Dear All,
Pranav is right. This is what really the kind of argument I was expecting. Thank you Pranav for bringing to light certain valid points.
To conclude -
1. The HR Manager is the manager of the human resource beyond doubt, irrespective of whether all the personnel including the key personnel in the organization accept it or not , like it or not.
2. The HR Manager unlike other managers is NOT working WITH the people of the organization, but FOR the people of the organization, FOR the organization of the people in every department, and through the people FOR the organization, which is nothing but the people again. His job is to impact the business of the organization through impacting the organization of the business - the people.
3. The HR Manager's objective is 'people of the organization' - their competence, welfare, compensation, career etc., whereas the objective of other managers is certainly not the people. It could be achieving the production targets, financial targets, marketing targets, and so on depending on their functions deploying the people. Deployment of the human resource as such is not management of the human resource.
4. The HR Manager's efforts are directed at driving the people achieve the goals through teams and team work - through structuring the organization of the teams appropriately, inculcating the right work culture in the structures,
5. The HR Manager may not be present in the workshops / worklines of the company, because his workstations are the 'people's minds and brains'. He constantly works towards aligning the people with the organization - their knowledge, skills and attitude. He has to therefore be working inside the minds of the people, inside their brains - imparting training, using applied behavioural sciences in every work setting of the company. He works in the minds, brains and hearts of the people highly influencing the people's competence and enabling them to remain to be the warriors of the organization.
Thanks to everyone who participated and responded.
Jeevaneyan
From India, Bangalore
Pranav is right. This is what really the kind of argument I was expecting. Thank you Pranav for bringing to light certain valid points.
To conclude -
1. The HR Manager is the manager of the human resource beyond doubt, irrespective of whether all the personnel including the key personnel in the organization accept it or not , like it or not.
2. The HR Manager unlike other managers is NOT working WITH the people of the organization, but FOR the people of the organization, FOR the organization of the people in every department, and through the people FOR the organization, which is nothing but the people again. His job is to impact the business of the organization through impacting the organization of the business - the people.
3. The HR Manager's objective is 'people of the organization' - their competence, welfare, compensation, career etc., whereas the objective of other managers is certainly not the people. It could be achieving the production targets, financial targets, marketing targets, and so on depending on their functions deploying the people. Deployment of the human resource as such is not management of the human resource.
4. The HR Manager's efforts are directed at driving the people achieve the goals through teams and team work - through structuring the organization of the teams appropriately, inculcating the right work culture in the structures,
5. The HR Manager may not be present in the workshops / worklines of the company, because his workstations are the 'people's minds and brains'. He constantly works towards aligning the people with the organization - their knowledge, skills and attitude. He has to therefore be working inside the minds of the people, inside their brains - imparting training, using applied behavioural sciences in every work setting of the company. He works in the minds, brains and hearts of the people highly influencing the people's competence and enabling them to remain to be the warriors of the organization.
Thanks to everyone who participated and responded.
Jeevaneyan
From India, Bangalore
friend, you r viewing this from the HR angle. then it is correct. but it is common to all the managers like production,finance etc..., but mor than that HR manager should be a silent watch dog over the smooth functioing of the whole industry so as to decide how to recruit whom to be recruited when to be recruited and if needed when to be removed or corrected. So, HR manager's work is definitely Human resource management and his work is also greater than that of any other in the industrty.
From India, Bangalore
From India, Bangalore
Community Support and Knowledge-base on business, career and organisational prospects and issues - Register and Log In to CiteHR and post your query, download formats and be part of a fostered community of professionals.
152120-very-use ful-hr-manageme nt-software-bui lt-excel-psa-hr -manager-mainta in-payrrol-exce l-soft.zip
Anand Kumar- HR Manager.doc