To
All our friends watching this topic.
Please see the powerpoint presentation on 'Shaping the Role of HR' posted today by Vikram.
It answers whether we should be sticking to our conventional wisdom or change our thinking system.
And, this is what I am trying to get through this discussion.
Jeevan.
From India, Bangalore
6All our friends watching this topic.
Please see the powerpoint presentation on 'Shaping the Role of HR' posted today by Vikram.
It answers whether we should be sticking to our conventional wisdom or change our thinking system.
And, this is what I am trying to get through this discussion.
Jeevan.
From India, Bangalore
JEEVA
I have read your postings and also other various comments on the same subject.
We must first understand the role of HR manager/executive in
Various cos., especially under the INDIAN conditions.
It seems to vary from company to company.
These variations could be , depending on the
-size of workforce
-policy of the company
-role definitions
-the line management concept
-functional managers’ interest
etc etc
These roles could be
-in small cos—it is “manager of human resources”
-in medium cos – it is “manager of resources to recruit /develop/etc services
-in larger cos – it is the role of facilitator, who intervenes / provides support.
HRM DOES NOT MANAGE HUMAN RESOURCES [ PEOPLE ] TO PRODUCE OUTCOME
LIKE THE LINE MANAGEMENT [ sales manager/manufacturing manager etc]
HRM facilitates the effective use of resources like
-recruitment/selection
-training / development
-compensation packaging/salary /pay roll administration
etc etc.,
TO ENABLE THE LINE MANAGERS TO PERFORM EFFECTIVELY
AND IMPROVE PERFORMANCE / PRODUCTIVITY.
REGARDS
LEO LINGHAM
From India, Mumbai
I have read your postings and also other various comments on the same subject.
We must first understand the role of HR manager/executive in
Various cos., especially under the INDIAN conditions.
It seems to vary from company to company.
These variations could be , depending on the
-size of workforce
-policy of the company
-role definitions
-the line management concept
-functional managers’ interest
etc etc
These roles could be
-in small cos—it is “manager of human resources”
-in medium cos – it is “manager of resources to recruit /develop/etc services
-in larger cos – it is the role of facilitator, who intervenes / provides support.
HRM DOES NOT MANAGE HUMAN RESOURCES [ PEOPLE ] TO PRODUCE OUTCOME
LIKE THE LINE MANAGEMENT [ sales manager/manufacturing manager etc]
HRM facilitates the effective use of resources like
-recruitment/selection
-training / development
-compensation packaging/salary /pay roll administration
etc etc.,
TO ENABLE THE LINE MANAGERS TO PERFORM EFFECTIVELY
AND IMPROVE PERFORMANCE / PRODUCTIVITY.
REGARDS
LEO LINGHAM
From India, Mumbai
Dear Lingam, Your remarks are really open minded and would clarify certain points to the readers of this posting and the subsequent arguments on the subject. Thanks and regards, Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
From India, Bangalore
Dear friends,
This is for those who are advocating the idea that the HR Manager / HR dept. is managing the company's entire human resource.
I find in IT companies that the IT guys are paid salaries much higher than their counterparts in HR or any other admin dept. The IT guys are called 'billable resources' and are therefore in a salary grade though in terms of no. of years of experience or education level, they are just on par with the HR staff.
If HR dept. is really recognized to be 'managing' these billable :roll: human resource, why then there is a discrimination like this?
What is the salary of the billable line manager, who according to some of us, is managed by HR manager?
Are we going to say salary is not a criterion for deciding this?
At least, please let me know the status if HR in IT companies.
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
This is for those who are advocating the idea that the HR Manager / HR dept. is managing the company's entire human resource.
I find in IT companies that the IT guys are paid salaries much higher than their counterparts in HR or any other admin dept. The IT guys are called 'billable resources' and are therefore in a salary grade though in terms of no. of years of experience or education level, they are just on par with the HR staff.
If HR dept. is really recognized to be 'managing' these billable :roll: human resource, why then there is a discrimination like this?
What is the salary of the billable line manager, who according to some of us, is managed by HR manager?
Are we going to say salary is not a criterion for deciding this?
At least, please let me know the status if HR in IT companies.
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
Dear friends,
This is for those who are advocating the idea that the HR Manager / HR dept. is managing the company's entire human resource.
I find in IT companies that the IT guys are paid salaries much higher than their counterparts in HR or any other admin dept. The IT guys are called 'billable resources' and are therefore in a higher salary grade though in terms of no. of years of experience or education level, they are just on par with the HR staff.
If HR dept. is really recognized to be 'managing' these billable :roll: human resource, why then there is a discrimination like this?
What is the salary of the billable line manager, who according to some of us, is managed by HR manager?
Are we going to say salary is not a criterion for deciding this?
At least, please let me know the status of HR in IT companies.
Is the HR manager managing the human resource in IT companies? ( I am not refering to recruitment)
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
This is for those who are advocating the idea that the HR Manager / HR dept. is managing the company's entire human resource.
I find in IT companies that the IT guys are paid salaries much higher than their counterparts in HR or any other admin dept. The IT guys are called 'billable resources' and are therefore in a higher salary grade though in terms of no. of years of experience or education level, they are just on par with the HR staff.
If HR dept. is really recognized to be 'managing' these billable :roll: human resource, why then there is a discrimination like this?
What is the salary of the billable line manager, who according to some of us, is managed by HR manager?
Are we going to say salary is not a criterion for deciding this?
At least, please let me know the status of HR in IT companies.
Is the HR manager managing the human resource in IT companies? ( I am not refering to recruitment)
Jeevan
From India, Bangalore
Dear Sam,
To get a sweeper to sweep, it is not necssary that you know to sweep. To get dinner ready for the mess daily, you do not need to know to cook.
Just the line of control to ensure that services are carried out as and when required and also to determine as and when element is management.
Read various literal definitions of MANAGEMENT by scholars and you know what a facilitaor has to do with it.
Cheers!
To get a sweeper to sweep, it is not necssary that you know to sweep. To get dinner ready for the mess daily, you do not need to know to cook.
Just the line of control to ensure that services are carried out as and when required and also to determine as and when element is management.
Read various literal definitions of MANAGEMENT by scholars and you know what a facilitaor has to do with it.
Cheers!
Hello all,
I would prefer to turn the discussion on its head....the HR function is not a fortress / empire that we minions are to defend! Yes, the organisation / company DEFINITELY is!
My viewpoint includes the following :
1. Any person responsible to ensure delivery by a team MUST be competent on certain HR functions - mainly team building / management. Thus, it devolves on the top most HR functionary in the organisation to ensure that systems, processes, control measures etc are in place to adequately cater to this vital requirement. Any malfunction in this aspect can potentially affect business. So, the scope of the HR Team, if it may be loosely termed thus, would effectively include all persons leading teams - irrespective of the domain.
2. From the above, you should be able to get a sense of an organisation wide framework - each person is part of the organisation because he/she IS REQUIRED. And in order that the business objectives are achieved, this organisation wide team must work in tandem at all levels. Thus, according to me, it is inconsequential to compare the HR manager's role by pitting it against the other departments - after all, the entire team is supposed to work towards a single goal rather than compete for supremacy between themselves when it is not required.
Let me try an analogy - the country has an HRD minister. Is he not supposed to be managing the Human Resource (ONE BILLION plus & counting)!! According to me, YES, the HR manager at any level is a vital contributor to effective management of the Human Resource....and since this is the most valuable resource in any organisation (or Nation), the other top functionaries are equally involved in the effort....this would be the top level team which manages HR.
Best wishes
Sushant
From India, Hyderabad
I would prefer to turn the discussion on its head....the HR function is not a fortress / empire that we minions are to defend! Yes, the organisation / company DEFINITELY is!
My viewpoint includes the following :
1. Any person responsible to ensure delivery by a team MUST be competent on certain HR functions - mainly team building / management. Thus, it devolves on the top most HR functionary in the organisation to ensure that systems, processes, control measures etc are in place to adequately cater to this vital requirement. Any malfunction in this aspect can potentially affect business. So, the scope of the HR Team, if it may be loosely termed thus, would effectively include all persons leading teams - irrespective of the domain.
2. From the above, you should be able to get a sense of an organisation wide framework - each person is part of the organisation because he/she IS REQUIRED. And in order that the business objectives are achieved, this organisation wide team must work in tandem at all levels. Thus, according to me, it is inconsequential to compare the HR manager's role by pitting it against the other departments - after all, the entire team is supposed to work towards a single goal rather than compete for supremacy between themselves when it is not required.
Let me try an analogy - the country has an HRD minister. Is he not supposed to be managing the Human Resource (ONE BILLION plus & counting)!! According to me, YES, the HR manager at any level is a vital contributor to effective management of the Human Resource....and since this is the most valuable resource in any organisation (or Nation), the other top functionaries are equally involved in the effort....this would be the top level team which manages HR.
Best wishes
Sushant
From India, Hyderabad
What I feel and believe is that every line manager is a HR Manager and it should go like that because if the line managers are not good bosses one cannot reduce the attrition/turnover.
People leave bosses not the company.
HR portfolio is there to regulate things, setting preferences to develop orgnational behavior, culture, fine tune things to generate performance out of every individual through line managers.
From Pakistan, Karachi
People leave bosses not the company.
HR portfolio is there to regulate things, setting preferences to develop orgnational behavior, culture, fine tune things to generate performance out of every individual through line managers.
From Pakistan, Karachi
Hey Jeevan,
When are we talking about owning Human resources, no one does that.
Even a Finance Manager can not own people, Producyion manager can not own his team, so this is an irrelevant point altogether.
As mentioned by Leo Lingham, the need of HRdiffers from organisation to organisation. HUman Resource Manager is not to own but to manage the facilities and benefits for human resource.
I don't agree although on a point that we HR do not manage Human Resource, then who does????
I recruit, select, train, develop, make career growth plan and other activities, Am I not managing the Human resource of the organisation.
As a consultant if somebody does a career mapping for a person, what is he doing?? Obviously he is not managing the human resource.
But in a company, an HR does that, we indirectly contribute towards their performance and productivity, if it would not have been true, calculating the ROI from Training would not be possible.
What say????
Archna
From India, Delhi
When are we talking about owning Human resources, no one does that.
Even a Finance Manager can not own people, Producyion manager can not own his team, so this is an irrelevant point altogether.
As mentioned by Leo Lingham, the need of HRdiffers from organisation to organisation. HUman Resource Manager is not to own but to manage the facilities and benefits for human resource.
I don't agree although on a point that we HR do not manage Human Resource, then who does????
I recruit, select, train, develop, make career growth plan and other activities, Am I not managing the Human resource of the organisation.
As a consultant if somebody does a career mapping for a person, what is he doing?? Obviously he is not managing the human resource.
But in a company, an HR does that, we indirectly contribute towards their performance and productivity, if it would not have been true, calculating the ROI from Training would not be possible.
What say????
Archna
From India, Delhi
Dear Aby, Sushant, Nizar and Archna,
Thanks for your responses.
Aby,
Do you think the HR manager is to align the human resource to the business? If yes, how can he do this if he does not know the business or have 'the business literacy'? If he does not know how to sweep, how can he visualise/understand the HR issues related to managing the peole who are into sweeping activity? If you closely observe, the CEOs, I mean the successful ones, the entrepreneurs, are quite passionate about the business they are into, they are keen to understand the business processes including the technical & HR processes, they love the products and that is why they succeed.
If, as HR professionals, we keep saying there is no need to know sweeping to manage the sweeper, then that is a serious problem. If we try to manage the most important capital (HR) of the business with superficial knowledge or no knowledge about the business, then it cannot be a good management. If you are appointed the HR manager of a logistics company having 1000 truck drivers, you may not be able to learn truck driving, but should go, sit with drivers while they are driving, observe them on the job. And, at least you must know car driving / traffic problems/vehicle related problems so as to understand the HR/IR issues related to managing these drivers.
And on cooking I need to say something. We should have cooking in our school and college as a part of curriculum. Cooking is a fundamental knowledge that any human being should have for survival. If you see, the defence personnel are able to cook their own food. I feel cooking should be taught as a compulsory practical subject in schools and colleges. Many foreign countries have it like this. I understand in Australia, cooking & baking are taught to everyone at school level. It is part of the curriculum. If one wants to learn more about it, he can have option, but basics are compulsory.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sushant,
Your answer is really good.
But, HRD minister is certainly not managing the country's human resource as implied by the name of his post.
Human resource development is all about education & training, it is not about managing the so many other aspects of people management.
If you mainatin HRD Minister is managing the country's human resource, so does the Health Minister as he is dealing with more fundamental aspect of HR.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nizar,
You are very much right. This is what I have been stressing.
Of course, I want to add certain points later to what you said.
But, I do not want to simply accept that HR manager is not managing the human resource and the designation is a misnomer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archna,
As I told you already, the company or the managers do not own any person working for the company or its department. The company is only hiring the .
So, ownership over the people or reporting relationships are not issues here. It is all about who is managing the human resource.
If you think HR manager is not directly managing the people, but indirectly and ultimately he is the one managing all the human resource, let me tell you this. Suppose, the Operations Manager has mishandled a people issue and there is a strike because of it. Will you accept the ultimate responsibilty and offer to quit?
When you are dealing with certain aspects of Human Resource Management, like training, career development etc. you have a tendency to assume that you are managing the human resource. But, is it true?
Please see how much responsibilty a line manager has towards training his people on the job. On-the-job training continues to be one of the best training methods even today. So, the line manager is also dealing with training.
The HR manager creates and maintains only the system for training the people. Moreover, the HR manager is not the only faculty for training. He very much depends upon line managers, internal faculty or external faculty.
If you have an external faculty training your employees, will you agree if I say he/she is managing your human resource? You probably will not, because it is not proper to say yes.
Then, how does your presence inside the company will change the concept? Can you please throw more light on your view substantiating your point?
Recruitment is not human resource management because the resource at that point is not yet with the company.
Recruitment is pre-HRM activity. You are just in the process of acquiring the resource.
Pregnancy & delivery issues are different from child care & child development issues.
Let me again give you the example of the company doctor. He is dealing with the health aspects of employees - the most important and fundamental need of people, people management, and also employees' health is the need of company. It is purely people related. It is not about finance or production. Is he therefore managing the human resource? Yes or No?
Jeevaneyan
From India, Bangalore
Thanks for your responses.
Aby,
Do you think the HR manager is to align the human resource to the business? If yes, how can he do this if he does not know the business or have 'the business literacy'? If he does not know how to sweep, how can he visualise/understand the HR issues related to managing the peole who are into sweeping activity? If you closely observe, the CEOs, I mean the successful ones, the entrepreneurs, are quite passionate about the business they are into, they are keen to understand the business processes including the technical & HR processes, they love the products and that is why they succeed.
If, as HR professionals, we keep saying there is no need to know sweeping to manage the sweeper, then that is a serious problem. If we try to manage the most important capital (HR) of the business with superficial knowledge or no knowledge about the business, then it cannot be a good management. If you are appointed the HR manager of a logistics company having 1000 truck drivers, you may not be able to learn truck driving, but should go, sit with drivers while they are driving, observe them on the job. And, at least you must know car driving / traffic problems/vehicle related problems so as to understand the HR/IR issues related to managing these drivers.
And on cooking I need to say something. We should have cooking in our school and college as a part of curriculum. Cooking is a fundamental knowledge that any human being should have for survival. If you see, the defence personnel are able to cook their own food. I feel cooking should be taught as a compulsory practical subject in schools and colleges. Many foreign countries have it like this. I understand in Australia, cooking & baking are taught to everyone at school level. It is part of the curriculum. If one wants to learn more about it, he can have option, but basics are compulsory.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sushant,
Your answer is really good.
But, HRD minister is certainly not managing the country's human resource as implied by the name of his post.
Human resource development is all about education & training, it is not about managing the so many other aspects of people management.
If you mainatin HRD Minister is managing the country's human resource, so does the Health Minister as he is dealing with more fundamental aspect of HR.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nizar,
You are very much right. This is what I have been stressing.
Of course, I want to add certain points later to what you said.
But, I do not want to simply accept that HR manager is not managing the human resource and the designation is a misnomer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archna,
As I told you already, the company or the managers do not own any person working for the company or its department. The company is only hiring the .
So, ownership over the people or reporting relationships are not issues here. It is all about who is managing the human resource.
If you think HR manager is not directly managing the people, but indirectly and ultimately he is the one managing all the human resource, let me tell you this. Suppose, the Operations Manager has mishandled a people issue and there is a strike because of it. Will you accept the ultimate responsibilty and offer to quit?
When you are dealing with certain aspects of Human Resource Management, like training, career development etc. you have a tendency to assume that you are managing the human resource. But, is it true?
Please see how much responsibilty a line manager has towards training his people on the job. On-the-job training continues to be one of the best training methods even today. So, the line manager is also dealing with training.
The HR manager creates and maintains only the system for training the people. Moreover, the HR manager is not the only faculty for training. He very much depends upon line managers, internal faculty or external faculty.
If you have an external faculty training your employees, will you agree if I say he/she is managing your human resource? You probably will not, because it is not proper to say yes.
Then, how does your presence inside the company will change the concept? Can you please throw more light on your view substantiating your point?
Recruitment is not human resource management because the resource at that point is not yet with the company.
Recruitment is pre-HRM activity. You are just in the process of acquiring the resource.
Pregnancy & delivery issues are different from child care & child development issues.
Let me again give you the example of the company doctor. He is dealing with the health aspects of employees - the most important and fundamental need of people, people management, and also employees' health is the need of company. It is purely people related. It is not about finance or production. Is he therefore managing the human resource? Yes or No?
Jeevaneyan
From India, Bangalore
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